Comments for Jay P. Greene's Blog http://jaypgreene.com With Help From Some Friends Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:19:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU Comment on Would You Pay $43,479 for a 1971 Impala? by Hobart Milton http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/19/would-you-pay-43479-for-a-1971-impala/#comment-1475 Hobart Milton Sun, 20 Jul 2008 19:26:12 +0000 http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=304#comment-1475 "Arkansas, in particular, has reason to worry over graduation rates. The SREB keeps statistics on the percentage of entering college students who go on to earn a degree in six years' time. In 2006, the national average was 55 percent. The average for the 16 states in the SREB, a group stretching from Texas to Delaware, was 52 percent. Arkansas's rate was 38 percent. Louisiana, at 36 percent, was the only SREB state below Arkansas." Arkansas Times - Jul 08 Hmmmm....I seem to recall that about 70% of the students graduate from high school. Numbers don't look to good for the colleges, especially Arkansas. “Arkansas, in particular, has reason to worry over graduation rates. The SREB keeps statistics on the percentage of entering college students who go on to earn a degree in six years’ time. In 2006, the national average was 55 percent. The average for the 16 states in the SREB, a group stretching from Texas to Delaware, was 52 percent. Arkansas’s rate was 38 percent. Louisiana, at 36 percent, was the only SREB state below Arkansas.”

Arkansas Times - Jul 08

Hmmmm….I seem to recall that about 70% of the students graduate from high school. Numbers don’t look to good for the colleges, especially Arkansas.

]]> Comment on Would You Pay $43,479 for a 1971 Impala? by Hobart Milton http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/19/would-you-pay-43479-for-a-1971-impala/#comment-1474 Hobart Milton Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:55:47 +0000 http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=304#comment-1474 Would that CATO had carried this comparison on to the university & college ranks. Tuition inflation compared to general inflation is usually accepted to be twice as high. So your college-level Impala would cost $86,968. Fortunately, college professors and public school teachers are not the brunt of this increase. Tables show both average salaries have been just keeping with the adjusted inflation rate and both are percentage-wise increasingly less of the entire spending for each agency than they wee 30-40 years ago. A key question then: where are these increases coming from, if not from teachers or professors? Let's have more analysis and less analogies. As it is, using CATO's analogy logic - college education is a bigger gyp than elementary & high school education. Would that CATO had carried this comparison on to the university & college ranks. Tuition inflation compared to general inflation is usually accepted to be twice as high. So your college-level Impala would cost $86,968.
Fortunately, college professors and public school teachers are not the brunt of this increase. Tables show both average salaries have been just keeping with the adjusted inflation rate and both are percentage-wise increasingly less of the entire spending for each agency than they wee 30-40 years ago.
A key question then: where are these increases coming from, if not from teachers or professors?
Let’s have more analysis and less analogies. As it is, using CATO’s analogy logic - college education is a bigger gyp than elementary & high school education.

]]> Comment on Bigger is Not Better in Education by Malcolm Kirkpatrick http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/20/bigger-is-not-better-in-education/#comment-1473 Malcolm Kirkpatrick Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:28:37 +0000 http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=307#comment-1473 Years ago, I investigated this question. NCES does not make available to unaffiliated researchers test score data on individual students, schools, or school districts, so I used three indirect measures of district size: the State-level mean district size, the fraction of total K-12 students enrollment assigned to districts over 20,000 enrollment (or 15,000 enrollment, depending on which year of the Digest of Education Statistics you use) , and the fractiion of total K-12 enrollment assigned to one or another of the nation's top 130 largest school districts. I then used the EXCEL correlation function to compute the coefficient of correlation between these measures and State-level NAEP 4th and 8th grade Reading and Math scores, from the years 1990, 1992, 1994 (Reading only), 1996 and 2000. I used composite scores, Numbers and Operations subtest scores, Algebra and Functions subtest scores. I used percentile scores, proficiency scores, mean scores and mean scores by parents' race and level of education. Across the board (with a couple of instructive exceptions), the correlation (size, score) is negative, usually in the range of -0.20 to -0.40. The correlation ($/pupil, enrollment) is positive, in the Digest table "Selected characteristics of school districts over 20,000" (or 15,000 depending on which year of the Digest you use). Across States, the correlation (mean district size, $/pupil) is positive. Per pupil costs rise and overall system performance falls as districts increase in size. Years ago, I investigated this question. NCES does not make available to unaffiliated researchers test score data on individual students, schools, or school districts, so I used three indirect measures of district size: the State-level mean district size, the fraction of total K-12 students enrollment assigned to districts over 20,000 enrollment (or 15,000 enrollment, depending on which year of the Digest of Education Statistics you use) , and the fractiion of total K-12 enrollment assigned to one or another of the nation’s top 130 largest school districts. I then used the EXCEL correlation function to compute the coefficient of correlation between these measures and State-level NAEP 4th and 8th grade Reading and Math scores, from the years 1990, 1992, 1994 (Reading only), 1996 and 2000. I used composite scores, Numbers and Operations subtest scores, Algebra and Functions subtest scores. I used percentile scores, proficiency scores, mean scores and mean scores by parents’ race and level of education. Across the board (with a couple of instructive exceptions), the correlation (size, score) is negative, usually in the range of -0.20 to -0.40.

The correlation ($/pupil, enrollment) is positive, in the Digest table “Selected characteristics of school districts over 20,000″ (or 15,000 depending on which year of the Digest you use). Across States, the correlation (mean district size, $/pupil) is positive.

Per pupil costs rise and overall system performance falls as districts increase in size.

]]> Comment on Would You Pay $43,479 for a 1971 Impala? by Jay P. Greene http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/19/would-you-pay-43479-for-a-1971-impala/#comment-1472 Jay P. Greene Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:15:09 +0000 http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=304#comment-1472 Hi Jim, The Long-Term NAEP results for 17 year-olds in reading and math show no change since the early 70s. (see http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/ltt/results2004/nat-reading-scalescore.asp and http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/ltt/results2004/nat-math-scalescore.asp ) And a study that Greg Forster and I did suggests that students do not come to school significantly less well-prepared to learn. At the very least it would be hard to argue, given the evidence we collected, that they are twice as difficult to educate. (see http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ewp_06.htm ) Hi Jim,

The Long-Term NAEP results for 17 year-olds in reading and math show no change since the early 70s. (see http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/ltt/results2004/nat-reading-scalescore.asp and http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/ltt/results2004/nat-math-scalescore.asp )

And a study that Greg Forster and I did suggests that students do not come to school significantly less well-prepared to learn. At the very least it would be hard to argue, given the evidence we collected, that they are twice as difficult to educate. (see http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ewp_06.htm )

]]> Comment on Bigger is Not Better in Education by Jay P. Greene http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/20/bigger-is-not-better-in-education/#comment-1471 Jay P. Greene Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:07:43 +0000 http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=307#comment-1471 I agree, Jim. At the risk of sounding off-color, size is not in the issue. I agree, Jim. At the risk of sounding off-color, size is not in the issue.

]]> Comment on Would You Pay $43,479 for a 1971 Impala? by Jim Vining http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/19/would-you-pay-43479-for-a-1971-impala/#comment-1470 Jim Vining Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:57:51 +0000 http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=304#comment-1470 Students are different. Education requirements are different. The job market for women is different. Contrary to your comment - education standards are higher - even though graduation rates are not much different - those graduating are meeting higher standards than ever before. Students are different. Education requirements are different. The job market for women is different. Contrary to your comment - education standards are higher - even though graduation rates are not much different - those graduating are meeting higher standards than ever before.

]]> Comment on Bigger is Not Better in Education by Jim Vining http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/20/bigger-is-not-better-in-education/#comment-1469 Jim Vining Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:47:25 +0000 http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=307#comment-1469 The problem with size in schools and/or districts is that the management model doesn't scale up (or down) well. When you change the size, you have to change management structure just as you have to change teaching styles when you change the size of the classroom. Size shouldn't be the arguable point. The problem with size in schools and/or districts is that the management model doesn’t scale up (or down) well. When you change the size, you have to change management structure just as you have to change teaching styles when you change the size of the classroom. Size shouldn’t be the arguable point.

]]> Comment on Eduresponses to Edubloggers by Who Is Eduwonkette? « Melissa’s Musings http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/10/eduresponses-to-edubloggers/#comment-1467 Who Is Eduwonkette? « Melissa’s Musings Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:55:16 +0000 http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=261#comment-1467 [...] important to consider the source of a paper or study when determining its credibility. He challenges eduwonkette to change her viewpoint and agree with him, or reveal her true identity: “I [...] [...] important to consider the source of a paper or study when determining its credibility. He challenges eduwonkette to change her viewpoint and agree with him, or reveal her true identity: “I [...]

]]> Comment on Make Every Day Count by Lisa Brown http://jaypgreene.com/2008/06/03/make-every-day-count/#comment-1466 Lisa Brown Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:27:25 +0000 http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=134#comment-1466 Just one data point: As a parent that helped at an elementary school one day a week, I can attest that at that school there was much more play after the tests in April. If I had any reason to take my child out of school in late April or May (maybe a trip to Disneyworld), I would not be the least concerned that he would be missing out on his "schooling." Just one data point: As a parent that helped at an elementary school one day a week, I can attest that at that school there was much more play after the tests in April.

If I had any reason to take my child out of school in late April or May (maybe a trip to Disneyworld), I would not be the least concerned that he would be missing out on his “schooling.”

]]> Comment on Being Misquoted by Hobart Milton http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/17/being-misquoted/#comment-1465 Hobart Milton Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:12:48 +0000 http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=294#comment-1465 Interesting points. However, how are we to know if a research paper is "accurate" as you proclaim without some sort of review and analysis by neutral parties who have the expertise to judge the information and statistical methods used? Eduwonk makes a key point when he states that the public and journalists are lacking in such skills. He uses a firewall image to describe the peer review process, invoking an image of a process which could be construed as a hindrance. However, another meaning of firewall is a way to protect your system. In drawing the line, when do we sacrifice accuracy and credibility for immediacy and availability? Interesting points. However, how are we to know if a research paper is “accurate” as you proclaim without some sort of review and analysis by neutral parties who have the expertise to judge the information and statistical methods used?
Eduwonk makes a key point when he states that the public and journalists are lacking in such skills. He uses a firewall image to describe the peer review process, invoking an image of a process which could be construed as a hindrance. However, another meaning of firewall is a way to protect your system.
In drawing the line, when do we sacrifice accuracy and credibility for immediacy and availability?

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