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	<title>Comments on: Florida Education Association Bemoans their Self-Imposed Exile</title>
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		<title>By: Baumol&#8217;s Disease By Design (Part 4) &#171; EdFly Blog</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2012/09/24/florida-education-association-bemoans-their-self-imposed-exile/#comment-36435</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Baumol&#8217;s Disease By Design (Part 4) &#171; EdFly Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=10667#comment-36435</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] You might think that, but sadly you are not the FEA leadership. The FEA leadership prefers to hold absurd positions and even express them publicly in the Orlando Se... [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] You might think that, but sadly you are not the FEA leadership. The FEA leadership prefers to hold absurd positions and even express them publicly in the Orlando Se&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Teacher111</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2012/09/24/florida-education-association-bemoans-their-self-imposed-exile/#comment-35543</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teacher111]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 11:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=10667#comment-35543</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m fine with choice as long as traditional public schools get to select students who help them meet their goals (like private schools) and can quickly remove students who cannot or will not perform academically and/or behaviorally (like charter schools and private schools). Or perhaps the private and charter schools receiving voucher funds should have to take every student and be subject to the same student removal process as traditional public schools. The private schools will have to administer the FCAT and submit themselves to the state grading system like the charter schools, though some charter schools are able to exempt themselves from getting a grade. 

Furthermore, public schools should be able to select their own curriculum and pedagogical practices  instead of being forced to implement programs from the state like Sen. Wise&#039;s beloved &quot;Failure-Free Reading&quot; program. That program seemed to produce more failures than anything else. Thankfully, Gov. Scott cut funding for that program. Teachers constantly have to do things that are ineffective, yet be held &quot;accountable&quot; for the results at the same time. Just because a program worked for the teacher-turned-professor-turned-product-producer doesn&#039;t mean it will work for all teachers within a school, district, or state.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m fine with choice as long as traditional public schools get to select students who help them meet their goals (like private schools) and can quickly remove students who cannot or will not perform academically and/or behaviorally (like charter schools and private schools). Or perhaps the private and charter schools receiving voucher funds should have to take every student and be subject to the same student removal process as traditional public schools. The private schools will have to administer the FCAT and submit themselves to the state grading system like the charter schools, though some charter schools are able to exempt themselves from getting a grade. </p>
<p>Furthermore, public schools should be able to select their own curriculum and pedagogical practices  instead of being forced to implement programs from the state like Sen. Wise&#8217;s beloved &#8220;Failure-Free Reading&#8221; program. That program seemed to produce more failures than anything else. Thankfully, Gov. Scott cut funding for that program. Teachers constantly have to do things that are ineffective, yet be held &#8220;accountable&#8221; for the results at the same time. Just because a program worked for the teacher-turned-professor-turned-product-producer doesn&#8217;t mean it will work for all teachers within a school, district, or state.</p>
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		<title>By: Teacher111</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2012/09/24/florida-education-association-bemoans-their-self-imposed-exile/#comment-35542</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teacher111]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 11:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=10667#comment-35542</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[According to FL Sen Nancy Detert (R-Sarasota), districts were able to hold teachers accountable under the pre-SB736 system. 

-----
Sen. Nancy Detert, R-Sarasota, delivered the bluntest argument for [SB736&#039;s] passage: She said districts haven’t removed bad teachers, even though they could have done so under current pay systems.

“We had a process. You didn’t have the courage to use it,” she said.

With more than 90 percent of teachers earning good evaluations, yet many students still struggling on FCAT, something is amiss, she said.

“We’ve started to forget what business we’re in. We’re not in the employment business. We’re in the business of moving kids from point A to point B,” Detert said.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_education_edblog/2011/02/merit-pay-bill-the-purpose-the-questions-the-concerns.html
------
 
This idea that accountability cannot exist unless we use a VAM system is absurd. Somehow, the elite schools where politicians send their children manage to function very well without them. Furthermore, Florida&#039;s model makes what the Kindergarten teacher does in her classroom irrelevant because her VAM score will be based on school-wide 4th and 5th grade FCAT results and not the results of her own students. That is the case for elective teachers as well. Even when subject-area exams are implemented (which should have happened BEFORE the merit no-pay law went into effect), can we really use a Pearson bubble test to gauge how well a person learned in a music class? Don&#039;t we admire musicians and artists for how they play, sing, or draw instead of their head knowledge about history, composers, artists, etc.? 


Congratulations on being the first person to reply to me without giving me 50-80 pages of homework!   :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to FL Sen Nancy Detert (R-Sarasota), districts were able to hold teachers accountable under the pre-SB736 system. </p>
<p>&#8212;&#8211;<br />
Sen. Nancy Detert, R-Sarasota, delivered the bluntest argument for [SB736's] passage: She said districts haven’t removed bad teachers, even though they could have done so under current pay systems.</p>
<p>“We had a process. You didn’t have the courage to use it,” she said.</p>
<p>With more than 90 percent of teachers earning good evaluations, yet many students still struggling on FCAT, something is amiss, she said.</p>
<p>“We’ve started to forget what business we’re in. We’re not in the employment business. We’re in the business of moving kids from point A to point B,” Detert said.</p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_education_edblog/2011/02/merit-pay-bill-the-purpose-the-questions-the-concerns.html" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_education_edblog/2011/02/merit-pay-bill-the-purpose-the-questions-the-concerns.html</a><br />
&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>This idea that accountability cannot exist unless we use a VAM system is absurd. Somehow, the elite schools where politicians send their children manage to function very well without them. Furthermore, Florida&#8217;s model makes what the Kindergarten teacher does in her classroom irrelevant because her VAM score will be based on school-wide 4th and 5th grade FCAT results and not the results of her own students. That is the case for elective teachers as well. Even when subject-area exams are implemented (which should have happened BEFORE the merit no-pay law went into effect), can we really use a Pearson bubble test to gauge how well a person learned in a music class? Don&#8217;t we admire musicians and artists for how they play, sing, or draw instead of their head knowledge about history, composers, artists, etc.? </p>
<p>Congratulations on being the first person to reply to me without giving me 50-80 pages of homework!   <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: allen</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2012/09/24/florida-education-association-bemoans-their-self-imposed-exile/#comment-35433</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[allen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=10667#comment-35433</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry Matthew but when parents, and kids, have some scope of action they can be saddled with some degree of responsibility for performance. Inasmuch as both are operating under the policy of mandatory attendance neither has much choice in much of anything. 

When coercion is the mechanism that underlies the situation then there ought to be no other expectation of those being compelled but resentment, resignation and resistance. Sorry for the alliteration but I&#039;m a bit rushed.

The real wonder is that my three &quot;R&quot; aren&#039;t much more forcefully expressed. It&#039;s the victory of hope, and an unlikely degree of willingness to defer gratification, over the facts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Matthew but when parents, and kids, have some scope of action they can be saddled with some degree of responsibility for performance. Inasmuch as both are operating under the policy of mandatory attendance neither has much choice in much of anything. </p>
<p>When coercion is the mechanism that underlies the situation then there ought to be no other expectation of those being compelled but resentment, resignation and resistance. Sorry for the alliteration but I&#8217;m a bit rushed.</p>
<p>The real wonder is that my three &#8220;R&#8221; aren&#8217;t much more forcefully expressed. It&#8217;s the victory of hope, and an unlikely degree of willingness to defer gratification, over the facts.</p>
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		<title>By: allen</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2012/09/24/florida-education-association-bemoans-their-self-imposed-exile/#comment-35431</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[allen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=10667#comment-35431</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I mean, we’re always told that we need to function more like the private sector, right?&quot;

That&#039;s not quite true. What &quot;you&quot; always been told is that you ought to be accountable for results, improve performance and increase productivity over time.

Oh, I guess that is like the private sector. Never mind.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I mean, we’re always told that we need to function more like the private sector, right?&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not quite true. What &#8220;you&#8221; always been told is that you ought to be accountable for results, improve performance and increase productivity over time.</p>
<p>Oh, I guess that is like the private sector. Never mind.</p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2012/09/24/florida-education-association-bemoans-their-self-imposed-exile/#comment-35391</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=10667#comment-35391</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Teacher111-

I agree that students and parents need to take responsibility, but all of the major Florida reforms promote parental involvement. Grading schools A-F gets parents involved, giving parents school choices gets them involved, curtailing social promotion gets parents involved.

Back during the 1990s policies that the FEA fought so hard to preserve and to which they seem to yearn for today, only 37% of 
Florida&#039;s low-income children learned how to read. The high school graduation was among the lowest in the nation, the percentage of Florida children passing AP exams was a fraction of what it is today.

Florida teachers should take pride in all of this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teacher111-</p>
<p>I agree that students and parents need to take responsibility, but all of the major Florida reforms promote parental involvement. Grading schools A-F gets parents involved, giving parents school choices gets them involved, curtailing social promotion gets parents involved.</p>
<p>Back during the 1990s policies that the FEA fought so hard to preserve and to which they seem to yearn for today, only 37% of<br />
Florida&#8217;s low-income children learned how to read. The high school graduation was among the lowest in the nation, the percentage of Florida children passing AP exams was a fraction of what it is today.</p>
<p>Florida teachers should take pride in all of this.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2012/09/24/florida-education-association-bemoans-their-self-imposed-exile/#comment-35384</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 11:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=10667#comment-35384</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And how do we give parents responsibility for education commensurate with their impact? School choice! 

When parents are responsible, accountability for teachers doesn&#039;t have to be politicized and teachers can have more freedom to teach while also being accountable for results like real professionals:

http://www.edchoice.org/Research/Reports/Free-to-Teach---What-America-s-Teachers-Say-about-Teaching-in-Public-and-Private-Schools.aspx]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And how do we give parents responsibility for education commensurate with their impact? School choice! </p>
<p>When parents are responsible, accountability for teachers doesn&#8217;t have to be politicized and teachers can have more freedom to teach while also being accountable for results like real professionals:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.edchoice.org/Research/Reports/Free-to-Teach---What-America-s-Teachers-Say-about-Teaching-in-Public-and-Private-Schools.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.edchoice.org/Research/Reports/Free-to-Teach&#8212;What-America-s-Teachers-Say-about-Teaching-in-Public-and-Private-Schools.aspx</a></p>
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		<title>By: Teacher111</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2012/09/24/florida-education-association-bemoans-their-self-imposed-exile/#comment-35383</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teacher111]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=10667#comment-35383</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By the way, thanks for the very civil discussion. I don&#039;t see that too much on my local newspaper&#039;s website, and it was refreshing to discuss the issues in such a respectful manner.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, thanks for the very civil discussion. I don&#8217;t see that too much on my local newspaper&#8217;s website, and it was refreshing to discuss the issues in such a respectful manner.</p>
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		<title>By: Teacher111</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2012/09/24/florida-education-association-bemoans-their-self-imposed-exile/#comment-35372</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teacher111]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 01:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=10667#comment-35372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So, American teachers and schools need to be more like the Asian teachers/schools? Why can&#039;t those same expectations be applied to all parties involved in the educational process? Those other parties include parents and the students. Those South Korean teachers would be in for a major culture shock in many of our major cities&#039; classrooms. Given our entitlement mentality, they&#039;d probably be in a culture shock in many of our high achieving suburban schools as well. This is only one example and certainly doesn&#039;t serve as a broad brush, but the behavior of the Japanese after their earthquake as opposed to the behavior of New Orleans residents after Katrina is a testament to the deeper issues in our culture that teachers cannot solve alone. 

Teachers are not against accountability. We are just against have to take sole responsibility when other parties play a role in educational outcomes. In the current reform climate, it appears as though no pressure is placed upon the students and parents to put in their side of the deal, which happens regularly in charter schools with their mandatory parent volunteer hours and the private school admissions and dismissal process.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, American teachers and schools need to be more like the Asian teachers/schools? Why can&#8217;t those same expectations be applied to all parties involved in the educational process? Those other parties include parents and the students. Those South Korean teachers would be in for a major culture shock in many of our major cities&#8217; classrooms. Given our entitlement mentality, they&#8217;d probably be in a culture shock in many of our high achieving suburban schools as well. This is only one example and certainly doesn&#8217;t serve as a broad brush, but the behavior of the Japanese after their earthquake as opposed to the behavior of New Orleans residents after Katrina is a testament to the deeper issues in our culture that teachers cannot solve alone. </p>
<p>Teachers are not against accountability. We are just against have to take sole responsibility when other parties play a role in educational outcomes. In the current reform climate, it appears as though no pressure is placed upon the students and parents to put in their side of the deal, which happens regularly in charter schools with their mandatory parent volunteer hours and the private school admissions and dismissal process.</p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2012/09/24/florida-education-association-bemoans-their-self-imposed-exile/#comment-35371</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 01:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[People want improved education outcomes and reduced class size has strong intuitive appeal, thus the public strongly supports reducing class size, private schools tout it, etc.

The research however shows that teacher quality is far more important than class size.

http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/25/indiana-jones-and-the-teacher-quality-crusade/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People want improved education outcomes and reduced class size has strong intuitive appeal, thus the public strongly supports reducing class size, private schools tout it, etc.</p>
<p>The research however shows that teacher quality is far more important than class size.</p>
<p><a href="http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/25/indiana-jones-and-the-teacher-quality-crusade/" rel="nofollow">http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/25/indiana-jones-and-the-teacher-quality-crusade/</a></p>
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