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	<title>Comments on: UK Tories Propose Vouchers for Developing Countries</title>
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	<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/07/06/uk-tories-propose-vouchers-for-developing-countries/</link>
	<description>With Help From Some Friends</description>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/07/06/uk-tories-propose-vouchers-for-developing-countries/#comment-5662</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3939#comment-5662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Note: for some reason, comments seem to be appearing out of order. 

Good point about auditing not being effective in the context of the developing world. My comment was shaped by what has been working in the States, where corruption levels are very low by world standards and the costs of logistical support are trivial (it&#039;s a rounding error as a portion of the education budget).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note: for some reason, comments seem to be appearing out of order. </p>
<p>Good point about auditing not being effective in the context of the developing world. My comment was shaped by what has been working in the States, where corruption levels are very low by world standards and the costs of logistical support are trivial (it&#8217;s a rounding error as a portion of the education budget).</p>
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		<title>By: allen</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/07/06/uk-tories-propose-vouchers-for-developing-countries/#comment-5660</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[allen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3939#comment-5660</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And auditing requires auditors who - 
 - know where to look for the schools they&#039;re supposed to audit. 
 - are courageous enough to identify fly-by-night operators who, being criminals, might not be averse to the use or threat of violence to protect their scam.
 - are honest enough to not accept the bribes of fly-by-nights.
 - require logistical support, i.e. transportation, expense reimbursement, office space, etc.
 - require oversight which has to be at least as honest, courageous and energetic as the auditors.

All of which is overhead, reducing funding available for educating kids.

&quot;Funny how nobody asks what we’re going to do about “fly by day” government schools&quot;

The question&#039;s been asked for decades. Until the advent of the idea of charter schools there wasn&#039;t a politically feasible answer that wasn&#039;t easily suborned by the educational status quo. Previous to the advent of charters the answer was, inevitably, more funding and the ease with which that&#039;s misused is testified too by the passage of No Child Left Behind.

Pauline, unless serious consideration&#039;s being given to *not* offering aid until such aid passes a &quot;humanitarian Hippocratic oath&quot; review to determine whether in helping more harm might be done then simply sitting by and letting things develop the implication is that such aid serves the interests of the funders or those promoting the program rather then the interests of those for whom the aid is being proposed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And auditing requires auditors who &#8211;<br />
 &#8211; know where to look for the schools they&#8217;re supposed to audit.<br />
 &#8211; are courageous enough to identify fly-by-night operators who, being criminals, might not be averse to the use or threat of violence to protect their scam.<br />
 &#8211; are honest enough to not accept the bribes of fly-by-nights.<br />
 &#8211; require logistical support, i.e. transportation, expense reimbursement, office space, etc.<br />
 &#8211; require oversight which has to be at least as honest, courageous and energetic as the auditors.</p>
<p>All of which is overhead, reducing funding available for educating kids.</p>
<p>&#8220;Funny how nobody asks what we’re going to do about “fly by day” government schools&#8221;</p>
<p>The question&#8217;s been asked for decades. Until the advent of the idea of charter schools there wasn&#8217;t a politically feasible answer that wasn&#8217;t easily suborned by the educational status quo. Previous to the advent of charters the answer was, inevitably, more funding and the ease with which that&#8217;s misused is testified too by the passage of No Child Left Behind.</p>
<p>Pauline, unless serious consideration&#8217;s being given to *not* offering aid until such aid passes a &#8220;humanitarian Hippocratic oath&#8221; review to determine whether in helping more harm might be done then simply sitting by and letting things develop the implication is that such aid serves the interests of the funders or those promoting the program rather then the interests of those for whom the aid is being proposed.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Pauline Dixon</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/07/06/uk-tories-propose-vouchers-for-developing-countries/#comment-5654</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dr Pauline Dixon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 13:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3939#comment-5654</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Greg, in my opinion this wouldn&#039;t work in developing countries as a bribe would get around the auditing initiative.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, in my opinion this wouldn&#8217;t work in developing countries as a bribe would get around the auditing initiative.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/07/06/uk-tories-propose-vouchers-for-developing-countries/#comment-5649</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 13:21:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3939#comment-5649</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here in the States, we&#039;ve discovered that requiring schools to be in existence for a stated number of years before they can take vouchers isn&#039;t a good idea. It freezes out the creation of new schools, so you&#039;re not encouraging real competition, you&#039;re just subsidizing the existing private schools - moving from a monopoly to an oligopoly. In other words, you&#039;re empowering schools rather than parents. The &quot;fly by night&quot; problem is much more easily addressed by auditing. (Funny how nobody asks what we&#039;re going to do about &quot;fly by day&quot; government schools, where the operators don&#039;t disappear overnight, but during the school day nobody bothers to teach the kids.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here in the States, we&#8217;ve discovered that requiring schools to be in existence for a stated number of years before they can take vouchers isn&#8217;t a good idea. It freezes out the creation of new schools, so you&#8217;re not encouraging real competition, you&#8217;re just subsidizing the existing private schools &#8211; moving from a monopoly to an oligopoly. In other words, you&#8217;re empowering schools rather than parents. The &#8220;fly by night&#8221; problem is much more easily addressed by auditing. (Funny how nobody asks what we&#8217;re going to do about &#8220;fly by day&#8221; government schools, where the operators don&#8217;t disappear overnight, but during the school day nobody bothers to teach the kids.)</p>
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		<title>By: Pauline Dixon</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/07/06/uk-tories-propose-vouchers-for-developing-countries/#comment-5628</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pauline Dixon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3939#comment-5628</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh yes and of course to stop the problem of fly by night school owners, a clause could be that vouchers could be allocated to schools that had been established for more than 5 years and already had a stable client base... there are ways around these problems, and as you say, as long as experts are involved in the initial setting up of the idea (and not just governments) then such issues will be addressed. If the market were still able to work, then if fly by night schools did set up, they would close once the parents figured out the school owner was just after the cash and didn&#039;t care for their children. And would take their voucher elsewhere, yes it might take time, but at least its better than government schools taking the cash, being inefficient and ineffective for the poor and not closing down!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yes and of course to stop the problem of fly by night school owners, a clause could be that vouchers could be allocated to schools that had been established for more than 5 years and already had a stable client base&#8230; there are ways around these problems, and as you say, as long as experts are involved in the initial setting up of the idea (and not just governments) then such issues will be addressed. If the market were still able to work, then if fly by night schools did set up, they would close once the parents figured out the school owner was just after the cash and didn&#8217;t care for their children. And would take their voucher elsewhere, yes it might take time, but at least its better than government schools taking the cash, being inefficient and ineffective for the poor and not closing down!</p>
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		<title>By: Pauline Dixon</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/07/06/uk-tories-propose-vouchers-for-developing-countries/#comment-5625</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pauline Dixon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3939#comment-5625</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Morning Allen, I think your points are very valid and James and I have had conversations along the way as how to protect the market and not to distort it. I do love your enthusiasm. I must say that I&#039;m assuming this &#039;proposed&#039; aid voucher idea could be in the form of targeted vouchers as I stated above. I would also hope that the voucher did not constitute the whole fee. Therefore retaining that link between fees and the parent and therefore accountability. I also need to point out that as you probably know private schools already provide their own scholarships and concessionary places. If some of this financial aid were to replace some of this then the school owners would be able to channel their resources elsewhere - improved facilities, new school branch in rural areas etc. There are also now companies such as the Indian School Finance Company (www.ifsc.in)(as well as microfinance companies) who provide loans for private schools, with well worked out lending rates. I hope that it might be that institutions such as these would somehow be part of this aid voucher scheme (a Grameen Bank for private schools). Therefore I think that an aid voucher has many possibilities. 

I&#039;m sure that James and I will have input into this proposed policy and therefore all of the concerns you are raising (as well as our own) we will obviously make the Tory party aware of and do our best to ensure that this is definately a good way forward, expand choice and the market.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Morning Allen, I think your points are very valid and James and I have had conversations along the way as how to protect the market and not to distort it. I do love your enthusiasm. I must say that I&#8217;m assuming this &#8216;proposed&#8217; aid voucher idea could be in the form of targeted vouchers as I stated above. I would also hope that the voucher did not constitute the whole fee. Therefore retaining that link between fees and the parent and therefore accountability. I also need to point out that as you probably know private schools already provide their own scholarships and concessionary places. If some of this financial aid were to replace some of this then the school owners would be able to channel their resources elsewhere &#8211; improved facilities, new school branch in rural areas etc. There are also now companies such as the Indian School Finance Company (www.ifsc.in)(as well as microfinance companies) who provide loans for private schools, with well worked out lending rates. I hope that it might be that institutions such as these would somehow be part of this aid voucher scheme (a Grameen Bank for private schools). Therefore I think that an aid voucher has many possibilities. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that James and I will have input into this proposed policy and therefore all of the concerns you are raising (as well as our own) we will obviously make the Tory party aware of and do our best to ensure that this is definately a good way forward, expand choice and the market.</p>
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		<title>By: allen</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/07/06/uk-tories-propose-vouchers-for-developing-countries/#comment-5623</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[allen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 02:24:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3939#comment-5623</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I suppose an idea like this was inevitable once Dr. Tooley&#039;s discovery achieved some notoriety. 

The record of foreign aid in general has been less then stellar and there&#039;s a rising chorus of voices, African voices, that are proclaiming &quot;thanks but no thanks&quot; due to the injury caused by aid programs. 

For aid agencies it&#039;s got to be a real conundrum.

If the money isn&#039;t pushed out in aid programs it&#039;s difficult to make a case to funders to continue to fund. Yet here are the recipients of that aid saying &quot;stop helping us so much&quot;. On the basis of that rising tide of discontent with the inevitable damage done by many, perhaps most, aid programs Dr. Tooley&#039;s discovery presents a wonderful opportunity to refresh the reputations of aid agencies by the discovery of a new, unspoiled target for their largess.

Considering the sums involved there&#039;s a sort of sad ludicrousness to the idea. 

For a mere $24/year/child a 100% subsidy becomes available with which to distort what must be a fragile market. Certainly none of the schools I&#039;ve read about in Dr. Tooley&#039;s and your work look to have the sort of financial resources necessary to withstand the inevitable rush of fly-by-night operators intent on scooping up those pitiful, by Western standards, vouchers and if it&#039;s one thing that brings the cockroaches out of the woodwork it&#039;s the smell of government money.

Of course a $24/year subsidy might be a pretty tough sell to aid agencies on the basis of its microscopic size. What kind of education, considering what&#039;s spent on public education in the developed nations and even the target nations, could a $24/year voucher buy?

According to what information I could scrape together Kenya is, as of 2007, spending 23.57% of per capita GDP per student on primary education (nationmaster.com) and has a per capita GDP of $1,700 (www.international.ucla.edu) which looks to put primary school per student spending at $402. Would aid agencies be willing to fund vouchers that are only 6% of the national primary per student funding level? What would vouchers at anywhere near public education spending levels do to the market in private education for the very poor?

I doubt anyone&#039;s likely to give too much thought to my concerns but as counterweight to those concerns is the knowledge that aid agencies are unlikely to damage the private education market for the poor worldwide. The supply of poor people seems to be sufficiently large to frustrate any effort to provide such aid on any but a more or less local level.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose an idea like this was inevitable once Dr. Tooley&#8217;s discovery achieved some notoriety. </p>
<p>The record of foreign aid in general has been less then stellar and there&#8217;s a rising chorus of voices, African voices, that are proclaiming &#8220;thanks but no thanks&#8221; due to the injury caused by aid programs. </p>
<p>For aid agencies it&#8217;s got to be a real conundrum.</p>
<p>If the money isn&#8217;t pushed out in aid programs it&#8217;s difficult to make a case to funders to continue to fund. Yet here are the recipients of that aid saying &#8220;stop helping us so much&#8221;. On the basis of that rising tide of discontent with the inevitable damage done by many, perhaps most, aid programs Dr. Tooley&#8217;s discovery presents a wonderful opportunity to refresh the reputations of aid agencies by the discovery of a new, unspoiled target for their largess.</p>
<p>Considering the sums involved there&#8217;s a sort of sad ludicrousness to the idea. </p>
<p>For a mere $24/year/child a 100% subsidy becomes available with which to distort what must be a fragile market. Certainly none of the schools I&#8217;ve read about in Dr. Tooley&#8217;s and your work look to have the sort of financial resources necessary to withstand the inevitable rush of fly-by-night operators intent on scooping up those pitiful, by Western standards, vouchers and if it&#8217;s one thing that brings the cockroaches out of the woodwork it&#8217;s the smell of government money.</p>
<p>Of course a $24/year subsidy might be a pretty tough sell to aid agencies on the basis of its microscopic size. What kind of education, considering what&#8217;s spent on public education in the developed nations and even the target nations, could a $24/year voucher buy?</p>
<p>According to what information I could scrape together Kenya is, as of 2007, spending 23.57% of per capita GDP per student on primary education (nationmaster.com) and has a per capita GDP of $1,700 (www.international.ucla.edu) which looks to put primary school per student spending at $402. Would aid agencies be willing to fund vouchers that are only 6% of the national primary per student funding level? What would vouchers at anywhere near public education spending levels do to the market in private education for the very poor?</p>
<p>I doubt anyone&#8217;s likely to give too much thought to my concerns but as counterweight to those concerns is the knowledge that aid agencies are unlikely to damage the private education market for the poor worldwide. The supply of poor people seems to be sufficiently large to frustrate any effort to provide such aid on any but a more or less local level.</p>
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		<title>By: Pauline Dixon</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/07/06/uk-tories-propose-vouchers-for-developing-countries/#comment-5621</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pauline Dixon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 21:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3939#comment-5621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Allen and Greg, 

The paper I think Greg was talking about is our Kenya paper which can be found at: http://www.ncl.ac.uk/egwest/research.html under country specific. This showed the results of the introduction of free primary education in 2003 on the children and schools of Kibera, which we estimated resulted in fewer children going to school owing to the transfer from one management type to another. 

I know the idea is still in its infancy. I&#039;m assuming that the aid voucher idea is to help those parents who at the moment don&#039;t have the choice of sending their children to private schools because they are so, so poor, that is the poorest of the poor. Or maybe because they can&#039;t afford to send all of their children to private school, but would like to. Although the private schools are very low fees and many poor parents are able to access them, there are still children who cannot leave the state sector but would choose to if their parents could afford the $2 or so per month to do so. I would hope that the aid voucher would target those children. You are correct that this would need to be carefully managed and it is hoped that it would not bring a whole load of regulations with it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Allen and Greg, </p>
<p>The paper I think Greg was talking about is our Kenya paper which can be found at: <a href="http://www.ncl.ac.uk/egwest/research.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncl.ac.uk/egwest/research.html</a> under country specific. This showed the results of the introduction of free primary education in 2003 on the children and schools of Kibera, which we estimated resulted in fewer children going to school owing to the transfer from one management type to another. </p>
<p>I know the idea is still in its infancy. I&#8217;m assuming that the aid voucher idea is to help those parents who at the moment don&#8217;t have the choice of sending their children to private schools because they are so, so poor, that is the poorest of the poor. Or maybe because they can&#8217;t afford to send all of their children to private school, but would like to. Although the private schools are very low fees and many poor parents are able to access them, there are still children who cannot leave the state sector but would choose to if their parents could afford the $2 or so per month to do so. I would hope that the aid voucher would target those children. You are correct that this would need to be carefully managed and it is hoped that it would not bring a whole load of regulations with it.</p>
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		<title>By: allen</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/07/06/uk-tories-propose-vouchers-for-developing-countries/#comment-5619</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[allen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3939#comment-5619</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And I think I understand what you&#039;re getting at.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I think I understand what you&#8217;re getting at.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/07/06/uk-tories-propose-vouchers-for-developing-countries/#comment-5617</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 13:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3939#comment-5617</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah, I see what you&#039;re getting at. I think the answer is that the incentive to dragoon students exists under the current regime and would not be increased by the change the Tories are proposing. With or without the Tory change, the incentive exists.

The Tory policy injects two changes:

1) The program would obviously require recipient countries to legalize private schooling. Right now, most of the private schools Tooley and Dixon are discovering are illegal. That will put a big brake on the dragooning process, which currently relies heavily on the illegal status of the schools.

2) The program would make more resources available to those parents who avoid dragooning, strengthening the private school sector.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, I see what you&#8217;re getting at. I think the answer is that the incentive to dragoon students exists under the current regime and would not be increased by the change the Tories are proposing. With or without the Tory change, the incentive exists.</p>
<p>The Tory policy injects two changes:</p>
<p>1) The program would obviously require recipient countries to legalize private schooling. Right now, most of the private schools Tooley and Dixon are discovering are illegal. That will put a big brake on the dragooning process, which currently relies heavily on the illegal status of the schools.</p>
<p>2) The program would make more resources available to those parents who avoid dragooning, strengthening the private school sector.</p>
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