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	<title>Comments on: Voucher Effects on Participants &#8212; Updated 7/05/09</title>
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	<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/27/voucher-participant-effects-updated-42609/</link>
	<description>With Help From Some Friends</description>
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		<title>By: Why Won&#8217;t This Pig Fly? I&#8217;ve Tried Everything . . . &#124; Cato @ Liberty</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/27/voucher-participant-effects-updated-42609/#comment-16236</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Why Won&#8217;t This Pig Fly? I&#8217;ve Tried Everything . . . &#124; Cato @ Liberty]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3295#comment-16236</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the evidence is consistent and clear that private school choice, markets in education, work. And private school choice even [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the evidence is consistent and clear that private school choice, markets in education, work. And private school choice even [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Why Won’t this Pig Fly? We’ve Tried Everything to Fix Education and Poverty. . .&#160;&#124;&#160;Conservatives for America</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/27/voucher-participant-effects-updated-42609/#comment-16208</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Why Won’t this Pig Fly? We’ve Tried Everything to Fix Education and Poverty. . .&#160;&#124;&#160;Conservatives for America]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Oct 2010 00:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3295#comment-16208</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the evidence is consistent and clear that private school choice, markets in education, work. And private school choice even [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the evidence is consistent and clear that private school choice, markets in education, work. And private school choice even [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Left, Pro-Educational Choice? &#171; NAS Blog</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/27/voucher-participant-effects-updated-42609/#comment-9129</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Left, Pro-Educational Choice? &#171; NAS Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3295#comment-9129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The Left, Pro-Educational&#160;Choice?  March 22, 2010 Candace de Russy Leave a comment Go to comments    Now here&#8217;s a novel insight: Greg Forster, a senior fellow at the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice, in making the case that school vouchers deliver substantially more educational improvement than charters, argues: [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Left, Pro-Educational&nbsp;Choice?  March 22, 2010 Candace de Russy Leave a comment Go to comments    Now here&#8217;s a novel insight: Greg Forster, a senior fellow at the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice, in making the case that school vouchers deliver substantially more educational improvement than charters, argues: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/27/voucher-participant-effects-updated-42609/#comment-4667</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3295#comment-4667</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To play devil&#039;s advocate to Geoff, perhaps middle America sees what Freidman could not because middle America is more adept at seeing what is not there.

And to answer the question in the last post, about the reason for not shifting, the best answer is that there must be a method to give schools cause to use the best practices, and market incentives are a great method.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To play devil&#8217;s advocate to Geoff, perhaps middle America sees what Freidman could not because middle America is more adept at seeing what is not there.</p>
<p>And to answer the question in the last post, about the reason for not shifting, the best answer is that there must be a method to give schools cause to use the best practices, and market incentives are a great method.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/27/voucher-participant-effects-updated-42609/#comment-4648</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3295#comment-4648</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just wanted to make sure that folks know that I am not challenging the research findings that Jay has presented. I think the evidence is clear. And it may even be sufficient to convince some people to support vouchers. 

But if that is their only reason for supporting vouchers, then what would be their reason for not shifting their alliegance to another &quot;prescription&quot; once it has been shown to produce greater learning gains? 

We have to make sure we are publicly making the case that parental choice is fundamental to who we are as a Democracy and not simply a means to helping the USA compete globally. 

So again, I am not challenging the evidence that vouchers have positive impacts on student achievement. I am simply trying put the evidence in perspective.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just wanted to make sure that folks know that I am not challenging the research findings that Jay has presented. I think the evidence is clear. And it may even be sufficient to convince some people to support vouchers. </p>
<p>But if that is their only reason for supporting vouchers, then what would be their reason for not shifting their alliegance to another &#8220;prescription&#8221; once it has been shown to produce greater learning gains? </p>
<p>We have to make sure we are publicly making the case that parental choice is fundamental to who we are as a Democracy and not simply a means to helping the USA compete globally. </p>
<p>So again, I am not challenging the evidence that vouchers have positive impacts on student achievement. I am simply trying put the evidence in perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/27/voucher-participant-effects-updated-42609/#comment-4647</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JR]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3295#comment-4647</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To quote from Steve Vryhof...

&quot;No wonder the voucher debate is so heated and inconclusive. In some ways, the arguments on both sides miss the point. Proponents of both sides share old, unexamined assumptions. For example, the argument that vouchers can be used to &quot;keep heat on failing public schools&quot; assumes that saving and improving all public schools is the main priority. Emphasis on &quot;quality&quot; and &quot;higher standards,&quot; while important, assumes that test scores measure the only purpose of schooling. Talk of &quot;cost savings&quot; and &quot;market efficiency&quot; assumes the bottom line is the major concern.

[...]

The point is that all these unexamined assumptions need to be brought out in to the open, clarified, and scrutinized. Objections to vouchers and other school choice options must not be allowed to distract us from the deeper, more fundamental, issues surrounding the public school monopoly: (1) the injustice that, in this free society, the state and not the parents determines the objectives of education, and (2) the absurdity of the claim that education can be &quot;neutral&quot; with respect to religion. We should begin by acknowledging that education depends on a community of meaning, that key factors are relationships and a value system, that non-public schools often do it better, and that education goes better when kids are in the schools where they and their parents want them to be.

[...]

Until these deeper, more fundamental issues are faced, unless the debates are recast at a more foundational level, the unending calls for reform simply waste time. Stricter certification requirements for teachers, decentralized decision-making, &quot;feel-good&quot; business-school partnerships, massive infusions of cash from foundations, higher standards and more frequent tests, and so on, and so on – all miss the most important point. As Candace Allen, the 1989 Colorado Enterprising Teacher of the Year, put it, &quot;It&#039;s time to lay down the weapons of reform… The more we reform, the more we bind ourselves to the system. What we need, simply, is liberty.&quot;

 – Steven C. Vryhof, Between Memory and Vision: The Case for Faith-Based Schooling, pg. 149-150]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To quote from Steve Vryhof&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;No wonder the voucher debate is so heated and inconclusive. In some ways, the arguments on both sides miss the point. Proponents of both sides share old, unexamined assumptions. For example, the argument that vouchers can be used to &#8220;keep heat on failing public schools&#8221; assumes that saving and improving all public schools is the main priority. Emphasis on &#8220;quality&#8221; and &#8220;higher standards,&#8221; while important, assumes that test scores measure the only purpose of schooling. Talk of &#8220;cost savings&#8221; and &#8220;market efficiency&#8221; assumes the bottom line is the major concern.</p>
<p>[...]</p>
<p>The point is that all these unexamined assumptions need to be brought out in to the open, clarified, and scrutinized. Objections to vouchers and other school choice options must not be allowed to distract us from the deeper, more fundamental, issues surrounding the public school monopoly: (1) the injustice that, in this free society, the state and not the parents determines the objectives of education, and (2) the absurdity of the claim that education can be &#8220;neutral&#8221; with respect to religion. We should begin by acknowledging that education depends on a community of meaning, that key factors are relationships and a value system, that non-public schools often do it better, and that education goes better when kids are in the schools where they and their parents want them to be.</p>
<p>[...]</p>
<p>Until these deeper, more fundamental issues are faced, unless the debates are recast at a more foundational level, the unending calls for reform simply waste time. Stricter certification requirements for teachers, decentralized decision-making, &#8220;feel-good&#8221; business-school partnerships, massive infusions of cash from foundations, higher standards and more frequent tests, and so on, and so on – all miss the most important point. As Candace Allen, the 1989 Colorado Enterprising Teacher of the Year, put it, &#8220;It&#8217;s time to lay down the weapons of reform… The more we reform, the more we bind ourselves to the system. What we need, simply, is liberty.&#8221;</p>
<p> – Steven C. Vryhof, Between Memory and Vision: The Case for Faith-Based Schooling, pg. 149-150</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/27/voucher-participant-effects-updated-42609/#comment-4645</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3295#comment-4645</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I totally agree with your underlying philosophical concerns, although I think it&#039;s less of a problem on this particular question because the schools themselves (public and private) generally make it a core goal to improve their English and math test scores. So the point here is that freedom helps schools accomplish what &lt;i&gt;they&lt;/i&gt; define as their core mission.

That having been said, I have said before and will gladly say again that there are other reasons to support school choice besides just the well-established empirical fact that they improve test scores, so even if there were some doubt about that I would still support them. I would just have one fewer reasons to do so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree with your underlying philosophical concerns, although I think it&#8217;s less of a problem on this particular question because the schools themselves (public and private) generally make it a core goal to improve their English and math test scores. So the point here is that freedom helps schools accomplish what <i>they</i> define as their core mission.</p>
<p>That having been said, I have said before and will gladly say again that there are other reasons to support school choice besides just the well-established empirical fact that they improve test scores, so even if there were some doubt about that I would still support them. I would just have one fewer reasons to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/27/voucher-participant-effects-updated-42609/#comment-4644</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3295#comment-4644</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just in case this isn&#039;t clear: the original motivation for these posts was the calumny promoted by &lt;a href=&quot;http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/15/the-ufts-cue-card-check/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Sock Puppeteer Leo Casey&lt;/a&gt; and others that Jay had misrepresented the empirical research. He&#039;s showing that he didn&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just in case this isn&#8217;t clear: the original motivation for these posts was the calumny promoted by <a href="http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/15/the-ufts-cue-card-check/" rel="nofollow">Sock Puppeteer Leo Casey</a> and others that Jay had misrepresented the empirical research. He&#8217;s showing that he didn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/27/voucher-participant-effects-updated-42609/#comment-4643</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3295#comment-4643</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JR,

I&#039;m not making a market argument, or really any argument, about the desirability of school choice.  I am simply trying to summarize the high quality research on a particular question.  Armed with that information people can make whatever argument for or against school choice they like.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JR,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not making a market argument, or really any argument, about the desirability of school choice.  I am simply trying to summarize the high quality research on a particular question.  Armed with that information people can make whatever argument for or against school choice they like.</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/27/voucher-participant-effects-updated-42609/#comment-4642</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JR]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=3295#comment-4642</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[“For four decades the public has been encouraged to understand school choice almost exclusively as part of the dogmatics of market ideology; choice, goes the mantra, will make education efficient and raise test scores. The unwashed middle of America has found this message credible but both incomplete and abstract. Quite properly they love the market, but they see what Milton Friedman could not – that education is different from airlines and banks.... Any practical campaign to engage the mind of the American Center must begin by limiting free market arguments to their proper instrumental role. The market cannot be mistaken for the good in itself which is centered in the family and more specifically in the relationship of the child to the parent. The dominant problem in our conversation is not the unsustainibility of a school; it is the unsustainibility of the family where school has forcibly taken the parent&#039;s place.” - John E. Coons, The Role of the Philanthropic Community in Strengthening and Sustaining Faith Based Schools and Developing a Robust Field of Study (Carnegie Conversation on Catholic Education, 2007)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“For four decades the public has been encouraged to understand school choice almost exclusively as part of the dogmatics of market ideology; choice, goes the mantra, will make education efficient and raise test scores. The unwashed middle of America has found this message credible but both incomplete and abstract. Quite properly they love the market, but they see what Milton Friedman could not – that education is different from airlines and banks&#8230;. Any practical campaign to engage the mind of the American Center must begin by limiting free market arguments to their proper instrumental role. The market cannot be mistaken for the good in itself which is centered in the family and more specifically in the relationship of the child to the parent. The dominant problem in our conversation is not the unsustainibility of a school; it is the unsustainibility of the family where school has forcibly taken the parent&#8217;s place.” &#8211; John E. Coons, The Role of the Philanthropic Community in Strengthening and Sustaining Faith Based Schools and Developing a Robust Field of Study (Carnegie Conversation on Catholic Education, 2007)</p>
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