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	<title>Comments on: Rotherham Seems to Take a Dim View of the Intellectual Honesty and Courage of Democrats</title>
	<atom:link href="http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/06/rotherham-seems-to-take-a-dim-view-of-the-intellectual-honesty-and-courage-of-democrats/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/06/rotherham-seems-to-take-a-dim-view-of-the-intellectual-honesty-and-courage-of-democrats/</link>
	<description>With Help From Some Friends</description>
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		<title>By: Pajamas Media » Empty Promises on School Vouchers</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/06/rotherham-seems-to-take-a-dim-view-of-the-intellectual-honesty-and-courage-of-democrats/#comment-4383</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pajamas Media » Empty Promises on School Vouchers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Apr 2009 05:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2955#comment-4383</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] secretary, the head of the Senate subcommittee overseeing the program, and a host of others all promised that they would evaluate vouchers guided solely by evidence. Page 1 of 2 &#160;Next [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] secretary, the head of the Senate subcommittee overseeing the program, and a host of others all promised that they would evaluate vouchers guided solely by evidence. Page 1 of 2 &nbsp;Next [...]</p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/06/rotherham-seems-to-take-a-dim-view-of-the-intellectual-honesty-and-courage-of-democrats/#comment-4327</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 23:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2955#comment-4327</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Trizzlor-

1. Certain subgroups haven&#039;t achieved statistically significant gains YET. Remember- the gains are incremental over time. There is no reason to expect all the various subgroups to reach the very high bar of statistical significance at the same time.

2. Vouchers are not a magic bullet, nor do they make you better looking or grant superpowers. They do help kids to learn to read better, make more satisfied parents for a fraction of the per pupil cost in DCPS.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trizzlor-</p>
<p>1. Certain subgroups haven&#8217;t achieved statistically significant gains YET. Remember- the gains are incremental over time. There is no reason to expect all the various subgroups to reach the very high bar of statistical significance at the same time.</p>
<p>2. Vouchers are not a magic bullet, nor do they make you better looking or grant superpowers. They do help kids to learn to read better, make more satisfied parents for a fraction of the per pupil cost in DCPS.</p>
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		<title>By: trizzlor</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/06/rotherham-seems-to-take-a-dim-view-of-the-intellectual-honesty-and-courage-of-democrats/#comment-4325</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[trizzlor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2955#comment-4325</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think you&#039;re dodging Greg. The goal of the program, as stated in the analysis, was primarily to improve the aptitude of kids from poor performing schools by putting them into private schools - in this the program failed unequivocally. This wasn&#039;t some measly subgroup or outlier (for that, I could&#039;ve taken the finding that the scholarship students end up reading less for fun) but the main group that it was set up for.

Does the program have some positive effects? Absolutely, and I agree that it is too early in the study to cancel it. But this is not the silver bullet as that voucher supports purport. Moreover, the cost analysis of these programs have been infantile - how much would it cost if the vast majority of students decided to follow vouchers? What about the cost of shutting down old schools or building new ones as students move from district to district on a whim?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re dodging Greg. The goal of the program, as stated in the analysis, was primarily to improve the aptitude of kids from poor performing schools by putting them into private schools &#8211; in this the program failed unequivocally. This wasn&#8217;t some measly subgroup or outlier (for that, I could&#8217;ve taken the finding that the scholarship students end up reading less for fun) but the main group that it was set up for.</p>
<p>Does the program have some positive effects? Absolutely, and I agree that it is too early in the study to cancel it. But this is not the silver bullet as that voucher supports purport. Moreover, the cost analysis of these programs have been infantile &#8211; how much would it cost if the vast majority of students decided to follow vouchers? What about the cost of shutting down old schools or building new ones as students move from district to district on a whim?</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/06/rotherham-seems-to-take-a-dim-view-of-the-intellectual-honesty-and-courage-of-democrats/#comment-4323</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2955#comment-4323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[1) The comparison you cite is between students who previously did or did not go to predominantly poor &lt;em&gt;schools&lt;/em&gt;. It is not between students who are and are not poor. Very big difference. 

2) With any positive result, you can always break it down and find some identifiable group of students where the benefits don&#039;t achieve statistical certainty. If you won&#039;t call a program successful if you can do that to the results, you&#039;ll never find a successful program.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1) The comparison you cite is between students who previously did or did not go to predominantly poor <em>schools</em>. It is not between students who are and are not poor. Very big difference. </p>
<p>2) With any positive result, you can always break it down and find some identifiable group of students where the benefits don&#8217;t achieve statistical certainty. If you won&#8217;t call a program successful if you can do that to the results, you&#8217;ll never find a successful program.</p>
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		<title>By: trizzlor</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/06/rotherham-seems-to-take-a-dim-view-of-the-intellectual-honesty-and-courage-of-democrats/#comment-4322</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[trizzlor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2955#comment-4322</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;So basically, the kids who actually did receive a voucher and used it had to make gains large enough to drag these other kids as a group over the level of statistical significance.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think this is a fair conclusion - the report explicitly shows results from both groups separately in all instances except for the first page summary (as is pretty standard procedure in any scientific study with many subgroups.

As to your specific point, &quot;&lt;i&gt;there was a statistically significant impact on reading
achievement of 4.5 scale score points (effect size (ES) = .13)8 from the offer of a
scholarship and 5.3 scale score points (ES = .15) from the use of a scholarship&lt;/i&gt;&quot; a minor difference of less than half a month. As for math &quot;&lt;i&gt;There was no statistically significant impact on math achievement, overall (ES = .03)
from the offer of a scholarship nor from the use of a scholarship&lt;/i&gt;&quot;. It&#039;s clear that results are very similar for both groups, and no one is &quot;dragging&quot; anyone up statistically.

In fact, the study actually &lt;b&gt;should&lt;/b&gt; be comparing between those that got the scholarship and those that used it - if you were looking at the effectiveness of a scholarship given to students who scored highly on their SATs, you would naturally compare its effect to those high SAT scorers who didn&#039;t take the scholarship. If you compare this way (pg. 30) the results or only marginal, and some fail multiple test correction.

The most important finding, however, is this: &quot;&lt;i&gt;There were no statistically significant reading (ES = .05) or math (ES = .01)
achievement impacts for the high-priority subgroup of students who had attended a
SINI public school&lt;/i&gt;&quot;. With the most important and at-risk group showed no improvements from the voucher program, how can you honestly call the program a success (or better yet, &quot;nothing short of phenomenal&quot; as you do over at NRO)? To me, it seems that the program helps those gifted students who would excel anyways, and offers nothing for the students who actually go to bad schools. Moreover, it seems to me that math improvement would be a better measurement of teaching methods than reading (which essentially improves if you just give students better books) and in that aspect the program failed entirely.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So basically, the kids who actually did receive a voucher and used it had to make gains large enough to drag these other kids as a group over the level of statistical significance.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this is a fair conclusion &#8211; the report explicitly shows results from both groups separately in all instances except for the first page summary (as is pretty standard procedure in any scientific study with many subgroups.</p>
<p>As to your specific point, &#8220;<i>there was a statistically significant impact on reading<br />
achievement of 4.5 scale score points (effect size (ES) = .13)8 from the offer of a<br />
scholarship and 5.3 scale score points (ES = .15) from the use of a scholarship</i>&#8221; a minor difference of less than half a month. As for math &#8220;<i>There was no statistically significant impact on math achievement, overall (ES = .03)<br />
from the offer of a scholarship nor from the use of a scholarship</i>&#8220;. It&#8217;s clear that results are very similar for both groups, and no one is &#8220;dragging&#8221; anyone up statistically.</p>
<p>In fact, the study actually <b>should</b> be comparing between those that got the scholarship and those that used it &#8211; if you were looking at the effectiveness of a scholarship given to students who scored highly on their SATs, you would naturally compare its effect to those high SAT scorers who didn&#8217;t take the scholarship. If you compare this way (pg. 30) the results or only marginal, and some fail multiple test correction.</p>
<p>The most important finding, however, is this: &#8220;<i>There were no statistically significant reading (ES = .05) or math (ES = .01)<br />
achievement impacts for the high-priority subgroup of students who had attended a<br />
SINI public school</i>&#8220;. With the most important and at-risk group showed no improvements from the voucher program, how can you honestly call the program a success (or better yet, &#8220;nothing short of phenomenal&#8221; as you do over at NRO)? To me, it seems that the program helps those gifted students who would excel anyways, and offers nothing for the students who actually go to bad schools. Moreover, it seems to me that math improvement would be a better measurement of teaching methods than reading (which essentially improves if you just give students better books) and in that aspect the program failed entirely.</p>
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		<title>By: Michelle Malkin &#187; A school choice study suppressed</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/06/rotherham-seems-to-take-a-dim-view-of-the-intellectual-honesty-and-courage-of-democrats/#comment-4305</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michelle Malkin &#187; A school choice study suppressed]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 13:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2955#comment-4305</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] a round-up of reax on the news from Jay P. Greene and Matthew Ladner.  Posted in: Education  Send to a Friend Printer Friendly   comments (0)&#160;&#160;&#160;trackbacks [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a round-up of reax on the news from Jay P. Greene and Matthew Ladner.  Posted in: Education  Send to a Friend Printer Friendly   comments (0)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;trackbacks [...]</p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/06/rotherham-seems-to-take-a-dim-view-of-the-intellectual-honesty-and-courage-of-democrats/#comment-4301</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2955#comment-4301</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Greg-

It&#039;s an empirical question and we are going to find out one way or another!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg-</p>
<p>It&#8217;s an empirical question and we are going to find out one way or another!</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/06/rotherham-seems-to-take-a-dim-view-of-the-intellectual-honesty-and-courage-of-democrats/#comment-4300</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2955#comment-4300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just want to praise your use of oi vey.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just want to praise your use of oi vey.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/06/rotherham-seems-to-take-a-dim-view-of-the-intellectual-honesty-and-courage-of-democrats/#comment-4299</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2955#comment-4299</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Obviously you&#039;re right that Andy shouldn&#039;t cynically dismiss empirical evidence the way he does. But you seem to think he&#039;s also wrong in thinking that courage and honesty are rare in DC. On that question, isn&#039;t the empirical evidence on his side?

And for the record, I support the IIT model as scientifically superior, but Matt is right that this model sets the bar high, so when the bar gets set high and the program clears it anyway, it should get due credit.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously you&#8217;re right that Andy shouldn&#8217;t cynically dismiss empirical evidence the way he does. But you seem to think he&#8217;s also wrong in thinking that courage and honesty are rare in DC. On that question, isn&#8217;t the empirical evidence on his side?</p>
<p>And for the record, I support the IIT model as scientifically superior, but Matt is right that this model sets the bar high, so when the bar gets set high and the program clears it anyway, it should get due credit.</p>
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