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	<title>Comments on: Andy&#8217;s Just Plain Wrong</title>
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	<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/03/05/andys-just-plain-wrong/</link>
	<description>With Help From Some Friends</description>
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		<title>By: Journey</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/03/05/andys-just-plain-wrong/#comment-25866</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Journey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 11:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2676#comment-25866</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good to see real expertise on display. Your contriuibton is most welcome.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good to see real expertise on display. Your contriuibton is most welcome.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/03/05/andys-just-plain-wrong/#comment-5713</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2676#comment-5713</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Figlio study only compares the starting point the kids are starting from. It&#039;s in its first year and it hasn&#039;t yet gathered multiple years of data, so it is unable to measure whether kids in the voucher program are learning more over time than other kids. It can only measure where they start from.

This is explicitly stated over and over in the study&#039;s text. The study says no conclusions should be drawn about the effectiveness of the program.

Meanwhile, in this post Jay has linked to a summary of all the studies that do provide information on the effectiveness of voucher programs. Guess what they find?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Figlio study only compares the starting point the kids are starting from. It&#8217;s in its first year and it hasn&#8217;t yet gathered multiple years of data, so it is unable to measure whether kids in the voucher program are learning more over time than other kids. It can only measure where they start from.</p>
<p>This is explicitly stated over and over in the study&#8217;s text. The study says no conclusions should be drawn about the effectiveness of the program.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, in this post Jay has linked to a summary of all the studies that do provide information on the effectiveness of voucher programs. Guess what they find?</p>
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		<title>By: Diane</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/03/05/andys-just-plain-wrong/#comment-5709</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Diane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2676#comment-5709</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here is a study showing florida&#039;s voucher system failed to produce better learning in its voucher students.  Google such words, Nortwestern University, and David Figlio.
  Given such results, doesn&#039;t that call into play the foolishness of many aspects of the A+ plan?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a study showing florida&#8217;s voucher system failed to produce better learning in its voucher students.  Google such words, Nortwestern University, and David Figlio.<br />
  Given such results, doesn&#8217;t that call into play the foolishness of many aspects of the A+ plan?</p>
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		<title>By: Ed is Watching &#187; Silly Little Me, Making a Big Deal Out of Those Poor D.C. Kids &#38; Their Vouchers</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/03/05/andys-just-plain-wrong/#comment-4909</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ed is Watching &#187; Silly Little Me, Making a Big Deal Out of Those Poor D.C. Kids &#38; Their Vouchers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 16:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2676#comment-4909</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Like President Obama, Mr. Carey seems to want this issue to just go away. It&#8217;s hard to understand why the fact that vouchers aren&#8217;t going away can be so disturbing to someone who makes such a strong case for charters &#8212; when the same evidence and rationale support both policies. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Like President Obama, Mr. Carey seems to want this issue to just go away. It&#8217;s hard to understand why the fact that vouchers aren&#8217;t going away can be so disturbing to someone who makes such a strong case for charters &#8212; when the same evidence and rationale support both policies. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/03/05/andys-just-plain-wrong/#comment-3919</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 13:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2676#comment-3919</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chakrabarti also did an &quot;inside the black box&quot; study:

http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/staff_reports/sr306.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chakrabarti also did an &#8220;inside the black box&#8221; study:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/staff_reports/sr306.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/staff_reports/sr306.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Parry</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/03/05/andys-just-plain-wrong/#comment-3893</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Parry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 21:50:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2676#comment-3893</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very interesting study. Thanks for the link!

Parry]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting study. Thanks for the link!</p>
<p>Parry</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm Kirkpatrick</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/03/05/andys-just-plain-wrong/#comment-3892</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 18:34:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2676#comment-3892</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The public can place whatever regulations it deems necessary on voucher schools as a condition of receiving those funds, just as it does with charter and traditional public schools. Of course, all of these systems would operate best with minimal regulation.  If regulation were the answer to school effectiveness our public schools would already be fantastic.&quot;

Recall the original title of the Brookings study by Chubb and Moe: &quot;What Price Democracy? Politics, Markets, &amp; America&#039;s Schools&quot;. They argued that &quot;democratic&quot; regulation is a cause of poor school performance. &lt;i&gt;Given&lt;/i&gt; government control of an industry, democratic control is better than undemocratic control. But why suppose that government control of any sort, in any industry, will outperform an unsubsidized, unregulated market? Do we conduct nation-wide referenda to determine the next week&#039;s lunch menu? Imagine the glorious battles we could have over religious dietary taboos. How many times must I chew my next bite of apple? Do we vote on this? Democracy is hardly an unalloyed good.  

Milton Friedman expressed a preference for vouchers over charter schools. He argued that the shorter leash on which charter schools operate would invite political intrusion. This was prescient. Consider KIPP. Perhaps &quot;the public&quot; can intrude on any system, but with vouchers or non-voucher private schools, the unions and their bought politicians must do so in broad daylight.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The public can place whatever regulations it deems necessary on voucher schools as a condition of receiving those funds, just as it does with charter and traditional public schools. Of course, all of these systems would operate best with minimal regulation.  If regulation were the answer to school effectiveness our public schools would already be fantastic.&#8221;</p>
<p>Recall the original title of the Brookings study by Chubb and Moe: &#8220;What Price Democracy? Politics, Markets, &amp; America&#8217;s Schools&#8221;. They argued that &#8220;democratic&#8221; regulation is a cause of poor school performance. <i>Given</i> government control of an industry, democratic control is better than undemocratic control. But why suppose that government control of any sort, in any industry, will outperform an unsubsidized, unregulated market? Do we conduct nation-wide referenda to determine the next week&#8217;s lunch menu? Imagine the glorious battles we could have over religious dietary taboos. How many times must I chew my next bite of apple? Do we vote on this? Democracy is hardly an unalloyed good.  </p>
<p>Milton Friedman expressed a preference for vouchers over charter schools. He argued that the shorter leash on which charter schools operate would invite political intrusion. This was prescient. Consider KIPP. Perhaps &#8220;the public&#8221; can intrude on any system, but with vouchers or non-voucher private schools, the unions and their bought politicians must do so in broad daylight.</p>
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		<title>By: CodyPT</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/03/05/andys-just-plain-wrong/#comment-3886</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CodyPT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:26:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2676#comment-3886</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jay....Why do you feel the need to kiss up to Andy Rotherham? Why don&#039;t you simply make your points and skip all this &quot;I hope he takes my comments graciously because he&#039;s such a wonderful guy&quot; stuff. What is that?

Long ago, I stopped reading Mr. Rotherham largely because I thought Mr. Rotherham had a bad case of Mr. Rotherham. Perhaps somewhere in all of his voluminous self-important writings, there actually was a kernel or two of wisdom. Who knows? One had to plow through 300-400 words when only less than 50 were needed. I think Mr. Rotherham suffers from a bad case of opinion-bloat.

I also think most of what Mr. Rotherham writes could be subtitled &quot;Look at how smart I am.&quot; His ego needs to be packed in ice to reduce further inflammation.

Even if you disagree with me, and you truly believe Mr. Rotherham is indeed all the wonderful things you say..why are you sucking up to him publicly?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay&#8230;.Why do you feel the need to kiss up to Andy Rotherham? Why don&#8217;t you simply make your points and skip all this &#8220;I hope he takes my comments graciously because he&#8217;s such a wonderful guy&#8221; stuff. What is that?</p>
<p>Long ago, I stopped reading Mr. Rotherham largely because I thought Mr. Rotherham had a bad case of Mr. Rotherham. Perhaps somewhere in all of his voluminous self-important writings, there actually was a kernel or two of wisdom. Who knows? One had to plow through 300-400 words when only less than 50 were needed. I think Mr. Rotherham suffers from a bad case of opinion-bloat.</p>
<p>I also think most of what Mr. Rotherham writes could be subtitled &#8220;Look at how smart I am.&#8221; His ego needs to be packed in ice to reduce further inflammation.</p>
<p>Even if you disagree with me, and you truly believe Mr. Rotherham is indeed all the wonderful things you say..why are you sucking up to him publicly?</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/03/05/andys-just-plain-wrong/#comment-3878</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 01:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2676#comment-3878</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Parry,

There have been some &quot;inside the black box&quot; studies.  See for example http://www.caldercenter.org/PDF/1001116_Florida_Heat.pdf for ana analysis of what Florida public schools did to improve in response to pressure from the state&#039;s accountability/voucher program.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Parry,</p>
<p>There have been some &#8220;inside the black box&#8221; studies.  See for example <a href="http://www.caldercenter.org/PDF/1001116_Florida_Heat.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.caldercenter.org/PDF/1001116_Florida_Heat.pdf</a> for ana analysis of what Florida public schools did to improve in response to pressure from the state&#8217;s accountability/voucher program.</p>
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		<title>By: Parry</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/03/05/andys-just-plain-wrong/#comment-3876</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Parry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 22:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2676#comment-3876</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jay,

In your own research (or in the research of others on voucher programs), is there any analysis as to why voucher programs appear to lead to positive results? Outside of big-picture, broad-label answers such as &quot;choice&quot; or &quot;competition&quot;, are there any substantive analyses of differences in children&#039;s educational experiences in the two settings (traditional public schools and voucher-funded destination private or charter schools) that might suggest causal mechanisms?

Thanks!

Parry]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay,</p>
<p>In your own research (or in the research of others on voucher programs), is there any analysis as to why voucher programs appear to lead to positive results? Outside of big-picture, broad-label answers such as &#8220;choice&#8221; or &#8220;competition&#8221;, are there any substantive analyses of differences in children&#8217;s educational experiences in the two settings (traditional public schools and voucher-funded destination private or charter schools) that might suggest causal mechanisms?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Parry</p>
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