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	<title>Comments on: The No Stats All Star</title>
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	<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/02/19/the-no-stats-all-star/</link>
	<description>With Help From Some Friends</description>
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		<title>By: edharris</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/02/19/the-no-stats-all-star/#comment-17923</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[edharris]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Dec 2010 03:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2577#comment-17923</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Average score, reading literacy, PISA, 2009:
[United States, Asian students 541]
Korea 539
Finland 536
[United States, white students 525]
Canada 524]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Average score, reading literacy, PISA, 2009:<br />
[United States, Asian students 541]<br />
Korea 539<br />
Finland 536<br />
[United States, white students 525]<br />
Canada 524</p>
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		<title>By: The Best Resources For Learning About The &#8220;Value-Added&#8221; Approach Towards Teacher Evaluation &#124; Larry Ferlazzo's Websites of the Day...</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/02/19/the-no-stats-all-star/#comment-12451</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Best Resources For Learning About The &#8220;Value-Added&#8221; Approach Towards Teacher Evaluation &#124; Larry Ferlazzo's Websites of the Day...]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 00:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2577#comment-12451</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The No Stats All Star raises a key point in evaluating teachers&#8230;and basketball players. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The No Stats All Star raises a key point in evaluating teachers&#8230;and basketball players. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Ferriter</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/02/19/the-no-stats-all-star/#comment-4117</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Ferriter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2577#comment-4117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matthew wrote:
Of course, principals should also be judged based upon the overall gains of their schools. When they are, principals will have a strong incentive to reward white space employees.


This is the most interesting element in this conversation to me, simply because it rings true.  If principals are held accountable for gains, they&#039;re going to have to work a whole lot harder than they currently are to figure out which &quot;white space&quot; employees are having the most impact, aren&#039;t they?

In my experience, this has always been a barrier---many principals rarely understand the impact of individual faculty members beyond the superficial &quot;this guy&#039;s a team player&quot; conclusions that they draw based on gut reactions.  

Now for the real question:  Do most principals have the skill and ability to identify white space impacts?

I&#039;ve certainly never worked for a statistician!
Bill]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew wrote:<br />
Of course, principals should also be judged based upon the overall gains of their schools. When they are, principals will have a strong incentive to reward white space employees.</p>
<p>This is the most interesting element in this conversation to me, simply because it rings true.  If principals are held accountable for gains, they&#8217;re going to have to work a whole lot harder than they currently are to figure out which &#8220;white space&#8221; employees are having the most impact, aren&#8217;t they?</p>
<p>In my experience, this has always been a barrier&#8212;many principals rarely understand the impact of individual faculty members beyond the superficial &#8220;this guy&#8217;s a team player&#8221; conclusions that they draw based on gut reactions.  </p>
<p>Now for the real question:  Do most principals have the skill and ability to identify white space impacts?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve certainly never worked for a statistician!<br />
Bill</p>
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		<title>By: Matt B</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/02/19/the-no-stats-all-star/#comment-4047</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 17:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2577#comment-4047</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matthew L -

There&#039;s a lot more research on the relative merits of performance pay than you imagine. This is from another Pfeffer piece:

“Merit pay for teachers is an idea that is almost 100 years old, and that has been subjected to much research. In 1918, ‘48 percent of U.S. school districts sampled in one study used compensation systems that they called merit pay.’ The evidence shows that merit pay plans seldom last longer than five years and consistently fail to improve student performance.

“Merit pay also backfires because it sends the message that all that matters is students’ test scores. Economists Brian Jacob and Steven Levitt have shown that the greater the incentive pay for enhancing students’ scores, the more teachers and students cheat. Anthony Bryk, a prestigious educational researcher, tells us that the same problems emerged when merit pay systems were implemented in the 1980s. Bryk observes, ‘It is like policymakers suffer from amnesia.’”

http://www.ssireview.org/site/printer/act_on_facts_not_faith/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew L -</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a lot more research on the relative merits of performance pay than you imagine. This is from another Pfeffer piece:</p>
<p>“Merit pay for teachers is an idea that is almost 100 years old, and that has been subjected to much research. In 1918, ‘48 percent of U.S. school districts sampled in one study used compensation systems that they called merit pay.’ The evidence shows that merit pay plans seldom last longer than five years and consistently fail to improve student performance.</p>
<p>“Merit pay also backfires because it sends the message that all that matters is students’ test scores. Economists Brian Jacob and Steven Levitt have shown that the greater the incentive pay for enhancing students’ scores, the more teachers and students cheat. Anthony Bryk, a prestigious educational researcher, tells us that the same problems emerged when merit pay systems were implemented in the 1980s. Bryk observes, ‘It is like policymakers suffer from amnesia.’”</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ssireview.org/site/printer/act_on_facts_not_faith/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ssireview.org/site/printer/act_on_facts_not_faith/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Obama and Teacher Pay &#171; TeachBreakthroughs</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/02/19/the-no-stats-all-star/#comment-3769</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Obama and Teacher Pay &#171; TeachBreakthroughs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2577#comment-3769</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] performance pay really improve teaching?  Check out Mathew Ladner&#8217;s blog post &#8220;The No Stats All Star&#8221; connecting Teaching to success in the N.B.A., by discussing the idea of a &#8220;white space [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] performance pay really improve teaching?  Check out Mathew Ladner&#8217;s blog post &#8220;The No Stats All Star&#8221; connecting Teaching to success in the N.B.A., by discussing the idea of a &#8220;white space [...]</p>
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		<title>By: There&#8217;s No &#8220;I&#8221; In Value Added at The Core Knowledge Blog</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/02/19/the-no-stats-all-star/#comment-3768</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[There&#8217;s No &#8220;I&#8221; In Value Added at The Core Knowledge Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:09:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2577#comment-3768</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the teachers&#8217; own class?  This essential question was brilliantly posed by Matthew Ladner at Jay Greene&#8217;s blog last [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the teachers&#8217; own class?  This essential question was brilliantly posed by Matthew Ladner at Jay Greene&#8217;s blog last [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Teacher&#8217;s Mailroom : Pay for Peformance: Old Thinking Thinks Anew</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/02/19/the-no-stats-all-star/#comment-3752</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Teacher&#8217;s Mailroom : Pay for Peformance: Old Thinking Thinks Anew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:05:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2577#comment-3752</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Thinks Anew Posted in February 26th, 2009  by admin in Teacher Magazine No Tags Am I dreaming? Does Jay Greene now believe that standardized test scores (and value-added analyses) alone cannot be used to judge [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Thinks Anew Posted in February 26th, 2009  by admin in Teacher Magazine No Tags Am I dreaming? Does Jay Greene now believe that standardized test scores (and value-added analyses) alone cannot be used to judge [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Earley</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/02/19/the-no-stats-all-star/#comment-3738</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel Earley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:09:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2577#comment-3738</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree, Sam, that a qualitative component should be factored and weighted in addition to quantitative data in any evaluation for teachers. That&#039;s what 360 degree evaluations currently do in other professions, as well as in many charter schools and most private schools -- quite similar to the concepts Matthew is proposing. Ultimately, the exact mix of variables considered should be feedback-driven joint decisions by those closest to the teachers, and critically important, stakeholders with skin in the game. Through a variety of channels, this would include not only principals and education boards, but parents and taxpayers too.

As a founding board member of a charter high school a few years ago, we learned a few things through experimentation. This more direct and personally connected level of accountability I&#039;m speaking of is what creates what I would call a &quot;culture of responsiveness&quot; found in these school workplaces. Without it, the school environment can drift toward the culture found at your local Department of Motor Vehicles.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, Sam, that a qualitative component should be factored and weighted in addition to quantitative data in any evaluation for teachers. That&#8217;s what 360 degree evaluations currently do in other professions, as well as in many charter schools and most private schools &#8212; quite similar to the concepts Matthew is proposing. Ultimately, the exact mix of variables considered should be feedback-driven joint decisions by those closest to the teachers, and critically important, stakeholders with skin in the game. Through a variety of channels, this would include not only principals and education boards, but parents and taxpayers too.</p>
<p>As a founding board member of a charter high school a few years ago, we learned a few things through experimentation. This more direct and personally connected level of accountability I&#8217;m speaking of is what creates what I would call a &#8220;culture of responsiveness&#8221; found in these school workplaces. Without it, the school environment can drift toward the culture found at your local Department of Motor Vehicles.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/02/19/the-no-stats-all-star/#comment-3737</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2577#comment-3737</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On the question of how you evaluate teacher merit on qualitative issues, the answer is: school choice!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the question of how you evaluate teacher merit on qualitative issues, the answer is: school choice!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2009/02/19/the-no-stats-all-star/#comment-3736</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2577#comment-3736</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jeff-

That is a very interesting link, and reinforces some of the difficulties. I agree with Daniel that we need to be (hopefully thoughtfully) experimenting with pay for performance schemes and to see where it goes. It may be the case, that as your article suggests, that collective goals should completely predominate. We won&#039;t know until we try.

Much of the potential gain to be had in reforming teaching compensation lies in reforming the compensation of the teaching profession lies in the the quality of candidates that the profession is able to attract. South Korea pays their 15 year veteran teachers about 2.5 national GDP per person, while in the U.S. that figure is 1.12.

South Korea recruits their teachers from the top 5% of university graduates, while we recruit from (on average) the bottom third. South Korea generates the higher pay for teachers with larger class sizes, and often comes out on top of international test score comparisons:

http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/25/indiana-jones-and-the-teacher-quality-crusade/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff-</p>
<p>That is a very interesting link, and reinforces some of the difficulties. I agree with Daniel that we need to be (hopefully thoughtfully) experimenting with pay for performance schemes and to see where it goes. It may be the case, that as your article suggests, that collective goals should completely predominate. We won&#8217;t know until we try.</p>
<p>Much of the potential gain to be had in reforming teaching compensation lies in reforming the compensation of the teaching profession lies in the the quality of candidates that the profession is able to attract. South Korea pays their 15 year veteran teachers about 2.5 national GDP per person, while in the U.S. that figure is 1.12.</p>
<p>South Korea recruits their teachers from the top 5% of university graduates, while we recruit from (on average) the bottom third. South Korea generates the higher pay for teachers with larger class sizes, and often comes out on top of international test score comparisons:</p>
<p><a href="http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/25/indiana-jones-and-the-teacher-quality-crusade/" rel="nofollow">http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/25/indiana-jones-and-the-teacher-quality-crusade/</a></p>
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