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	<title>Comments on: Teacher Certification: Ineffective, Counterproductive and Possibly Racist&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/12/17/teacher-certification-ineffective-counterproductive-and-possibly-racist/</link>
	<description>With Help From Some Friends</description>
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		<title>By: K. Maxton</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/12/17/teacher-certification-ineffective-counterproductive-and-possibly-racist/#comment-5157</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[K. Maxton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 02:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2019#comment-5157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The point I was trying to make above is that there are factors in test-taking that can&#039;t be controlled for, which I&#039;m sure you&#039;re aware of.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point I was trying to make above is that there are factors in test-taking that can&#8217;t be controlled for, which I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re aware of.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaaren Maxton</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/12/17/teacher-certification-ineffective-counterproductive-and-possibly-racist/#comment-5156</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kaaren Maxton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 01:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2019#comment-5156</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You have to also consider the demographics of students.  Some students come from literate families while others do not.  This greatly affects learning potential. Some are educated prior to coming to the United States, others are not.  Some languages are pre-literate, and students speaking these languages usually take longer to learn English.  Wisconsin requires English Language Learners to take state assessments, (I assume Florida does, too) however the assessments are accompanied by a translation document with a dialect that few can understand, that even aides can&#039;t translate and that students can&#039;t read, rendering the test unreliable.

You have some good points, but as with most things, you can&#039;t only look at test scores.  We need qualitative assessments, too. 

The alternative certification may have something to do with the gains, but I doubt it is the whole reason for them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have to also consider the demographics of students.  Some students come from literate families while others do not.  This greatly affects learning potential. Some are educated prior to coming to the United States, others are not.  Some languages are pre-literate, and students speaking these languages usually take longer to learn English.  Wisconsin requires English Language Learners to take state assessments, (I assume Florida does, too) however the assessments are accompanied by a translation document with a dialect that few can understand, that even aides can&#8217;t translate and that students can&#8217;t read, rendering the test unreliable.</p>
<p>You have some good points, but as with most things, you can&#8217;t only look at test scores.  We need qualitative assessments, too. </p>
<p>The alternative certification may have something to do with the gains, but I doubt it is the whole reason for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed is Watching &#187; Please, Please Don&#8217;t Nip Colorado School Innovation In the Bud</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/12/17/teacher-certification-ineffective-counterproductive-and-possibly-racist/#comment-3642</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ed is Watching &#187; Please, Please Don&#8217;t Nip Colorado School Innovation In the Bud]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2019#comment-3642</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] for greater accountability? The effectiveness of teacher certification on student learning is very much in doubt, to put it kindly. Let&#8217;s hope the DPS board is willing to take such a small chance to help [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for greater accountability? The effectiveness of teacher certification on student learning is very much in doubt, to put it kindly. Let&#8217;s hope the DPS board is willing to take such a small chance to help [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Orlando</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/12/17/teacher-certification-ineffective-counterproductive-and-possibly-racist/#comment-3300</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Orlando]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2019#comment-3300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One big problem is that we cannot reliably MEASURE teaching effectiveness, much less predict it. 

I&#039;m not sure whether teacher certification is effective, but the data you present, although suggestive, does not prove it is ineffective, unless there is no significant difference among the students; an alternative explanation (which, in an ideal world, would be true) is that the certified teachers get students that are harder to teach, and so may be more effective and still not be able to improve the students&#039; rank.

The way I see it, the problem with measuring effectiveness is that we would need to measure three things:
- Knowledge of students
- The rate at which they can learn (sorta kinda IQ, but also related to current knowledge and environment)
- The rate at which they can become smarter (I don&#039;t see &#039;IQ&#039; as fixed) 

Knowledge is (relatively) easy to measure, rate to learn is harder (IQ kinda works, but ...), rate to become smarter is much harder (do we have any measures ?)

Unless we can measure those things (and the effects of the kids environment),comparisons are highly suspect.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One big problem is that we cannot reliably MEASURE teaching effectiveness, much less predict it. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure whether teacher certification is effective, but the data you present, although suggestive, does not prove it is ineffective, unless there is no significant difference among the students; an alternative explanation (which, in an ideal world, would be true) is that the certified teachers get students that are harder to teach, and so may be more effective and still not be able to improve the students&#8217; rank.</p>
<p>The way I see it, the problem with measuring effectiveness is that we would need to measure three things:<br />
- Knowledge of students<br />
- The rate at which they can learn (sorta kinda IQ, but also related to current knowledge and environment)<br />
- The rate at which they can become smarter (I don&#8217;t see &#8216;IQ&#8217; as fixed) </p>
<p>Knowledge is (relatively) easy to measure, rate to learn is harder (IQ kinda works, but &#8230;), rate to become smarter is much harder (do we have any measures ?)</p>
<p>Unless we can measure those things (and the effects of the kids environment),comparisons are highly suspect.</p>
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		<title>By: Right Wing Nation &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Presenting The Carnival Of Education</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/12/17/teacher-certification-ineffective-counterproductive-and-possibly-racist/#comment-3200</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Right Wing Nation &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Presenting The Carnival Of Education]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 12:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2019#comment-3200</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Ladner presents Teacher Certification: Ineffective, Counterproductive and Possibly Racist&#8230; &#171; Jay P. Gree... posted at Jay P. Greene&#8217;s [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ladner presents Teacher Certification: Ineffective, Counterproductive and Possibly Racist&#8230; &laquo; Jay P. Gree&#8230; posted at Jay P. Greene&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/12/17/teacher-certification-ineffective-counterproductive-and-possibly-racist/#comment-3092</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 14:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2019#comment-3092</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh and also- I agree with you that there was no racist intent- which is part of the reason I described teacher certification as &quot;possibly racist.&quot; No one was out to stick it to African American and Hispanic children when they created teacher certification.

Apparently, from what we can tell however, they did in fact do so. Further, those who continue to oppose reform despite this growing body of evidence...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh and also- I agree with you that there was no racist intent- which is part of the reason I described teacher certification as &#8220;possibly racist.&#8221; No one was out to stick it to African American and Hispanic children when they created teacher certification.</p>
<p>Apparently, from what we can tell however, they did in fact do so. Further, those who continue to oppose reform despite this growing body of evidence&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/12/17/teacher-certification-ineffective-counterproductive-and-possibly-racist/#comment-3087</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Rude-

I think the demographic changes on the way will strongly encourage states to follow the lead of states like Florida, and other changes as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Rude-</p>
<p>I think the demographic changes on the way will strongly encourage states to follow the lead of states like Florida, and other changes as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Rude</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/12/17/teacher-certification-ineffective-counterproductive-and-possibly-racist/#comment-3080</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Rude]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 04:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.com/?p=2019#comment-3080</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The idea that traditional certification is largely ineffective, and likely counterproductive, is certainly not new, but data to show that is always welcome.  I would hesitate to use the term &quot;racist&quot;, as that can easily be taken to include racist intent.  But &quot;differential impact&quot; does not share that drawback.  It seems to me that common sense, if not the data, would support the idea that traditional certification requirements would have a differential impact on minorities wanting to become teachers.  

     Traditional certification requirements ought to be severely curtailed or eliminated.  We&#039;ve known that for decades.  The situation has hardly changed since I went through the teacher training curriculum at the University of Missouri in the early sixties.  But where would change come from?  Can a politician seeking state office gain any votes by attacking traditional certification requirements?  In my experience I can&#039;t recall anyone ever trying that, though it would certainly attract my vote.  I don&#039;t know much about the politics of teacher certification, but I would guess that there is an &quot;education establishment&quot; with some political clout and savvy on one side, and a great mass of apathy on the other.  John Q. Public, I suppose, passively accepts the general principle that occupational licensing laws are for the benefit of the public.  End of story.

    So your thoughts and data are certainly welcome, and I hope beneficial, but where do we go from here to affect needed change?  I haven&#039;t the slightest idea.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea that traditional certification is largely ineffective, and likely counterproductive, is certainly not new, but data to show that is always welcome.  I would hesitate to use the term &#8220;racist&#8221;, as that can easily be taken to include racist intent.  But &#8220;differential impact&#8221; does not share that drawback.  It seems to me that common sense, if not the data, would support the idea that traditional certification requirements would have a differential impact on minorities wanting to become teachers.  </p>
<p>     Traditional certification requirements ought to be severely curtailed or eliminated.  We&#8217;ve known that for decades.  The situation has hardly changed since I went through the teacher training curriculum at the University of Missouri in the early sixties.  But where would change come from?  Can a politician seeking state office gain any votes by attacking traditional certification requirements?  In my experience I can&#8217;t recall anyone ever trying that, though it would certainly attract my vote.  I don&#8217;t know much about the politics of teacher certification, but I would guess that there is an &#8220;education establishment&#8221; with some political clout and savvy on one side, and a great mass of apathy on the other.  John Q. Public, I suppose, passively accepts the general principle that occupational licensing laws are for the benefit of the public.  End of story.</p>
<p>    So your thoughts and data are certainly welcome, and I hope beneficial, but where do we go from here to affect needed change?  I haven&#8217;t the slightest idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/12/17/teacher-certification-ineffective-counterproductive-and-possibly-racist/#comment-3035</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Well, I don&#039;t know whether you can infer that the SAT is a better predictor of teaching effectiveness than certification from what I wrote. But it&#039;s true, whether you can infer it from what I wrote or not. In fact, studies have found strong links between a variety of undergraduate-level acadmeic measures (SAT scores, selectiveness of the college, etc.) and teacher effectiveness.

On the subject of racism, I&#039;ll go this far with you: I&#039;ll admit that an abnormally strong indifference to racial injustice could be a form of racism without actually involving a mental state as concrete as the &lt;i&gt;mens rea&lt;/i&gt; I called for in my last comment. Perhaps we could extend my legal metaphor and distinguish between &quot;first degree racism,&quot; that is, racism with both &lt;i&gt;mens rea&lt;/i&gt; and malice aforethought (i.e. conscious malice); &quot;second degree racism,&quot; that is, racism with &lt;i&gt;mens rea&lt;/i&gt; but without malice aforethought (i.e. unconscious racism); and &quot;raceslaughter,&quot; that is, an abnormally strong indifference to racial injustice without the &lt;i&gt;mens rea&lt;/i&gt; of concrete racism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I don&#8217;t know whether you can infer that the SAT is a better predictor of teaching effectiveness than certification from what I wrote. But it&#8217;s true, whether you can infer it from what I wrote or not. In fact, studies have found strong links between a variety of undergraduate-level acadmeic measures (SAT scores, selectiveness of the college, etc.) and teacher effectiveness.</p>
<p>On the subject of racism, I&#8217;ll go this far with you: I&#8217;ll admit that an abnormally strong indifference to racial injustice could be a form of racism without actually involving a mental state as concrete as the <i>mens rea</i> I called for in my last comment. Perhaps we could extend my legal metaphor and distinguish between &#8220;first degree racism,&#8221; that is, racism with both <i>mens rea</i> and malice aforethought (i.e. conscious malice); &#8220;second degree racism,&#8221; that is, racism with <i>mens rea</i> but without malice aforethought (i.e. unconscious racism); and &#8220;raceslaughter,&#8221; that is, an abnormally strong indifference to racial injustice without the <i>mens rea</i> of concrete racism.</p>
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		<title>By: pm</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/12/17/teacher-certification-ineffective-counterproductive-and-possibly-racist/#comment-3032</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pm]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[My point was meant as an aside.  I probably should have used &quot;one&quot; in the second sentence instead of &quot;you&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point was meant as an aside.  I probably should have used &#8220;one&#8221; in the second sentence instead of &#8220;you&#8221;.</p>
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