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	<title>Comments on: Who Cares Where Obama&#8217;s Kids Will Go to School?</title>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/11/10/who-cares-where-obamas-kids-will-go-to-school/#comment-4378</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1590#comment-4378</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m convinced that I was wrong about this.  There is something awful about sending your kids to an effective school while changing public policy to do deny others the opportunity to do the same.  See http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/11/usdoe-yanks-opportunity-from-dc-children/#comment-4377]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m convinced that I was wrong about this.  There is something awful about sending your kids to an effective school while changing public policy to do deny others the opportunity to do the same.  See <a href="http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/11/usdoe-yanks-opportunity-from-dc-children/#comment-4377" rel="nofollow">http://jaypgreene.com/2009/04/11/usdoe-yanks-opportunity-from-dc-children/#comment-4377</a></p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/11/10/who-cares-where-obamas-kids-will-go-to-school/#comment-2708</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1590#comment-2708</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I fully believe that Barack Obama opposes vouchers because he sincerely believes that there are some things (like private schooling) that are beneficial enough to be worth purchasing if you can afford them, but that government should nonetheless refrain from subsidizing so that poor families can enjoy them as well as rich ones.

Therefore, I eagerly await the application of this principle - which I &lt;i&gt;totally believe he holds&lt;/i&gt; - to his positions on welfare, health care, housing, labor policy, the environment, economic bailouts, entitlements, farm subsidies, taxes . . .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fully believe that Barack Obama opposes vouchers because he sincerely believes that there are some things (like private schooling) that are beneficial enough to be worth purchasing if you can afford them, but that government should nonetheless refrain from subsidizing so that poor families can enjoy them as well as rich ones.</p>
<p>Therefore, I eagerly await the application of this principle &#8211; which I <i>totally believe he holds</i> &#8211; to his positions on welfare, health care, housing, labor policy, the environment, economic bailouts, entitlements, farm subsidies, taxes . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/11/10/who-cares-where-obamas-kids-will-go-to-school/#comment-2707</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1590#comment-2707</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I find myself in the unenviable position of arguing with Clint Bolick, one of the country&#039;s best and certainly my favorite lawyer.  

As much as I believe that opponents of school choice are mistaken, I&#039;m trying be fair to their perspective and not throw around the charge of hypocrisy too easily.  

First, nailing down what Obama has said about school choice (or almost anything, for that matter) is like trying to nail down jello.  Before the Wisconsin primary Obama told the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel that he was open to voucher programs and would be informed by the evidence.  After winning the primary he quickly backtracked to the position he stated in the third debate, which was that he believed the evidence already failed to support the wisdom of government programs to pay for students to attend private schools.  Now, believing that voucher programs didn&#039;t &quot;work&quot; to improve average student achievement doesn&#039;t mean that you oppose people (including yourself) ever choosing a private school.  It&#039;s not hypocrisy to oppose government payment for plastic surgery as ineffective for improving public health, while purchasing it yourself.

I never heard Obama say that choice diverted public funds from public schools (and as numerous studies have shown -- public schools tend to be left with significantly more resources per pupil when vouchers are introduced).  But even if he did, one could argue that voucher programs faciliate the transfer of funds, making it more problematic than individual, unsubsidized choosing of a private school.

Lastly, I don&#039;t think the &quot;Buy American&quot; analogy works.  Obama and other opponents of vouchers don&#039;t have to be against people sending their kids to private school.  They are just against people doing it with government assistance.

I think choice supporters are drawn to the hypocrisy charge because they (in my view, rightly) disagree with choice opponents about the justice of taxing people for an education, compelling them to attend school, and then assigning them to schools that rich people can avoid.  I agree with you and other voucher supporters that this arrangement is not just ineffective educationally but also horribly unjust.  Fair-minded voucher opponents also see this arrangement as unjust, but want to correct the injustice by improving the public schools to which students are assigned.  I (and other voucher supporters) don&#039;t see that as a solution, both because it is impractical and because it doesn&#039;t fully address the individual wishes of families.

But I think we overplay our hand when we accuse them of hypocrisy.  They have a different perspective on the way to correct the injustice of the status quo and we need to convince them to change that perspective.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find myself in the unenviable position of arguing with Clint Bolick, one of the country&#8217;s best and certainly my favorite lawyer.  </p>
<p>As much as I believe that opponents of school choice are mistaken, I&#8217;m trying be fair to their perspective and not throw around the charge of hypocrisy too easily.  </p>
<p>First, nailing down what Obama has said about school choice (or almost anything, for that matter) is like trying to nail down jello.  Before the Wisconsin primary Obama told the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel that he was open to voucher programs and would be informed by the evidence.  After winning the primary he quickly backtracked to the position he stated in the third debate, which was that he believed the evidence already failed to support the wisdom of government programs to pay for students to attend private schools.  Now, believing that voucher programs didn&#8217;t &#8220;work&#8221; to improve average student achievement doesn&#8217;t mean that you oppose people (including yourself) ever choosing a private school.  It&#8217;s not hypocrisy to oppose government payment for plastic surgery as ineffective for improving public health, while purchasing it yourself.</p>
<p>I never heard Obama say that choice diverted public funds from public schools (and as numerous studies have shown &#8212; public schools tend to be left with significantly more resources per pupil when vouchers are introduced).  But even if he did, one could argue that voucher programs faciliate the transfer of funds, making it more problematic than individual, unsubsidized choosing of a private school.</p>
<p>Lastly, I don&#8217;t think the &#8220;Buy American&#8221; analogy works.  Obama and other opponents of vouchers don&#8217;t have to be against people sending their kids to private school.  They are just against people doing it with government assistance.</p>
<p>I think choice supporters are drawn to the hypocrisy charge because they (in my view, rightly) disagree with choice opponents about the justice of taxing people for an education, compelling them to attend school, and then assigning them to schools that rich people can avoid.  I agree with you and other voucher supporters that this arrangement is not just ineffective educationally but also horribly unjust.  Fair-minded voucher opponents also see this arrangement as unjust, but want to correct the injustice by improving the public schools to which students are assigned.  I (and other voucher supporters) don&#8217;t see that as a solution, both because it is impractical and because it doesn&#8217;t fully address the individual wishes of families.</p>
<p>But I think we overplay our hand when we accuse them of hypocrisy.  They have a different perspective on the way to correct the injustice of the status quo and we need to convince them to change that perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: Clint Bolick</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/11/10/who-cares-where-obamas-kids-will-go-to-school/#comment-2705</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clint Bolick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1590#comment-2705</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just realized that me second to last sentence sounds like Sarah Palin.  I&#039;m so easily influenced!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just realized that me second to last sentence sounds like Sarah Palin.  I&#8217;m so easily influenced!</p>
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		<title>By: Clint Bolick</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/11/10/who-cares-where-obamas-kids-will-go-to-school/#comment-2704</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clint Bolick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1590#comment-2704</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jay, I disagree with you (maybe for the first time ever!).  The reason it matters is the nature of the arguments about school choice.  Obama repeatedly said during the campaign that school choice doesn&#039;t work---but if he chooses a private school, obviously it works for the Obamas.  He has said he supports charters, and there are a lot of good charters---but not good enough for his kids?  Opponents say school choice diverts public funds from public schools---and if he sends his kids to private schools, he&#039;ll &quot;drain&quot; about $280K from the public schools over 8 years.  And then there&#039;s the symbolism---asking poor parents to make a sacrifice that he demonstrably would not make.  Would the folks who promote &quot;Buy American&quot; be accused of hypocrisy if they bought Toyotas, notwithstanding that it may be in their interest to do so?  You betcha.  I for one will pound on this for the duration of his presidency.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, I disagree with you (maybe for the first time ever!).  The reason it matters is the nature of the arguments about school choice.  Obama repeatedly said during the campaign that school choice doesn&#8217;t work&#8212;but if he chooses a private school, obviously it works for the Obamas.  He has said he supports charters, and there are a lot of good charters&#8212;but not good enough for his kids?  Opponents say school choice diverts public funds from public schools&#8212;and if he sends his kids to private schools, he&#8217;ll &#8220;drain&#8221; about $280K from the public schools over 8 years.  And then there&#8217;s the symbolism&#8212;asking poor parents to make a sacrifice that he demonstrably would not make.  Would the folks who promote &#8220;Buy American&#8221; be accused of hypocrisy if they bought Toyotas, notwithstanding that it may be in their interest to do so?  You betcha.  I for one will pound on this for the duration of his presidency.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Researcher</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/11/10/who-cares-where-obamas-kids-will-go-to-school/#comment-2633</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ed Researcher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1590#comment-2633</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here in DC we care where the Obamas go to school the same way we care about what kind of car celebrities drive.   It&#039;s perfectly legitimate &quot;news&quot; albeit entertainment news (is there a difference?).  

We also care because it provides validation for our preferred education sector.  We have a favorite brand and want to see the ultimate celebrity endorsement of that brand.

I was hoping they&#039;d pick a charter school. Why? Because I like DC charters and would want the positive publicity to give them a boost.  People on this blog hoped for private because they like private schools and want validation for that preference.  Same for the public school holdouts like Jay Matthews and skuleboi.

In the end, I Hope (tm) those kids get a school where they can be safe and learn and have a semi-normal childhood.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here in DC we care where the Obamas go to school the same way we care about what kind of car celebrities drive.   It&#8217;s perfectly legitimate &#8220;news&#8221; albeit entertainment news (is there a difference?).  </p>
<p>We also care because it provides validation for our preferred education sector.  We have a favorite brand and want to see the ultimate celebrity endorsement of that brand.</p>
<p>I was hoping they&#8217;d pick a charter school. Why? Because I like DC charters and would want the positive publicity to give them a boost.  People on this blog hoped for private because they like private schools and want validation for that preference.  Same for the public school holdouts like Jay Matthews and skuleboi.</p>
<p>In the end, I Hope &#8482; those kids get a school where they can be safe and learn and have a semi-normal childhood.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/11/10/who-cares-where-obamas-kids-will-go-to-school/#comment-2619</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1590#comment-2619</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Republic or Laws, I furiously dislike both of them. To me, Plato&#039;s message is that the human soul needs less freedom.

Which is why I got a C on my graduate paper on Plato. I proceeded to do an economic analysis on Laws - the trade restrictions, money system, property rights and the size of the bureaucracy.

Needless to say, my paper failed because I “refused to take Plato on his own terms” something I felt other philosophers (greater than I) had already done. Instead I choose to attack Plato on expected real outcomes not philosophical ones (which I saw as problematic since it seemed to me Plato believed only Philosophers understood and those who understood were Philosophers…unfortunately I lack the mental capacity to attack Plato’s logic as a massive tautology, but that is what it seems like to me).

On a side note, as a percentage of the population, Plato’s second best Republic would require a bureaucracy that is larger than the US government. I believe that would be a considerably problem since farm technology of the day was less efficient and required more manpower to produce food to sustain a human population (even one that was supposed to be static).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Republic or Laws, I furiously dislike both of them. To me, Plato&#8217;s message is that the human soul needs less freedom.</p>
<p>Which is why I got a C on my graduate paper on Plato. I proceeded to do an economic analysis on Laws &#8211; the trade restrictions, money system, property rights and the size of the bureaucracy.</p>
<p>Needless to say, my paper failed because I “refused to take Plato on his own terms” something I felt other philosophers (greater than I) had already done. Instead I choose to attack Plato on expected real outcomes not philosophical ones (which I saw as problematic since it seemed to me Plato believed only Philosophers understood and those who understood were Philosophers…unfortunately I lack the mental capacity to attack Plato’s logic as a massive tautology, but that is what it seems like to me).</p>
<p>On a side note, as a percentage of the population, Plato’s second best Republic would require a bureaucracy that is larger than the US government. I believe that would be a considerably problem since farm technology of the day was less efficient and required more manpower to produce food to sustain a human population (even one that was supposed to be static).</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/11/10/who-cares-where-obamas-kids-will-go-to-school/#comment-2618</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1590#comment-2618</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I can hardly type this without laughing, but . . . you misspelled Aaron Pallas&#039;s online handle. The &quot;correct&quot; spelling (if that&#039;s the word) is actually, no fooling, &quot;skoolboy.&quot;

Savor the sweet, sweet irony!

And let&#039;s leave Plato out of this. The Republic was not a proposal for what politics should really look like, but an allegory to illustrate a point about the human soul.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can hardly type this without laughing, but . . . you misspelled Aaron Pallas&#8217;s online handle. The &#8220;correct&#8221; spelling (if that&#8217;s the word) is actually, no fooling, &#8220;skoolboy.&#8221;</p>
<p>Savor the sweet, sweet irony!</p>
<p>And let&#8217;s leave Plato out of this. The Republic was not a proposal for what politics should really look like, but an allegory to illustrate a point about the human soul.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/11/10/who-cares-where-obamas-kids-will-go-to-school/#comment-2617</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:06:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1590#comment-2617</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the elites maintain their privilege by getting educated people, like “schoolboy” to believe government can solve all their problems. Government, the very thing that protects the elites from competition, the very thing that sends impoverished children to substandard schools, that very thing which sends the bulk (80%) of wealth transfers to the rich, the very thing that declares wars and sends the lower classes off to fight.

I find it scary that educated men and women see all the problems of this country as a systemic part of our country’s capitalist heritage – that outlawing private enterprise and voluntary transactions among adults will somehow enlighten us, makes us virtuous, or even intelligent citizens of democracy.

Eric Hoffer, a notable American philosopher once said “Nowhere is there such measureless loathing of their country by educated people as in America.”

But I think, since the time of Plato, that the reality is this: the most educated among us loathe and fear human freedom, seeing as how human freedom does not produce the democratic man, virtuous woman, or socially just society they prefer – however they’ve defined it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the elites maintain their privilege by getting educated people, like “schoolboy” to believe government can solve all their problems. Government, the very thing that protects the elites from competition, the very thing that sends impoverished children to substandard schools, that very thing which sends the bulk (80%) of wealth transfers to the rich, the very thing that declares wars and sends the lower classes off to fight.</p>
<p>I find it scary that educated men and women see all the problems of this country as a systemic part of our country’s capitalist heritage – that outlawing private enterprise and voluntary transactions among adults will somehow enlighten us, makes us virtuous, or even intelligent citizens of democracy.</p>
<p>Eric Hoffer, a notable American philosopher once said “Nowhere is there such measureless loathing of their country by educated people as in America.”</p>
<p>But I think, since the time of Plato, that the reality is this: the most educated among us loathe and fear human freedom, seeing as how human freedom does not produce the democratic man, virtuous woman, or socially just society they prefer – however they’ve defined it.</p>
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		<title>By: Washington City Paper: City Desk - Loose Lips Daily</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/11/10/who-cares-where-obamas-kids-will-go-to-school/#comment-2614</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Washington City Paper: City Desk - Loose Lips Daily]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1590#comment-2614</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] both get in on the blather, as does Washingtonian and Teacher Magazine and bloggers gwadzilla, Jay P. Greene. Meanwhile, crowds gather at White House to watch [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] both get in on the blather, as does Washingtonian and Teacher Magazine and bloggers gwadzilla, Jay P. Greene. Meanwhile, crowds gather at White House to watch [...]</p>
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