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	<title>Comments on: Policymaking By Anecdote</title>
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	<description>With Help From Some Friends</description>
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		<title>By: Ellen</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/07/policymaking-by-anecdote/#comment-2331</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ellen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 20:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1165#comment-2331</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The www.reinstatedrart.com  website provides a wealth of data about the Siebens situation.

It is not about one teacher possibly being treated unfairly, it is more about the loss to students of a great teacher for no stated reason except &quot;you don&#039;t fit&quot; and the likelihood of this type of thing happening more and more.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The <a href="http://www.reinstatedrart.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.reinstatedrart.com</a>  website provides a wealth of data about the Siebens situation.</p>
<p>It is not about one teacher possibly being treated unfairly, it is more about the loss to students of a great teacher for no stated reason except &#8220;you don&#8217;t fit&#8221; and the likelihood of this type of thing happening more and more.</p>
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		<title>By: michael mazenko</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/07/policymaking-by-anecdote/#comment-2304</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[michael mazenko]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1165#comment-2304</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting points, Greg.  Though, I have to say, in my sixteen years in public education in two separate states, I have encountered very different communities and school boards than you.  Never, in my experience, have I known school boards that are &quot;stooges&quot; to the local unions.  In fact, it&#039;s always been the opposite.  I guess that is the nature of our disagreement.

Additionally, it seems there is a disconnect concerning the assumption that because more teachers aren&#039;t being fired, that unions and tenure are at fault for perpetuating bad schools.  In fact, a community member of mine recently commented that unions are ruining education and we ought to immediately replace twenty percent of the staff because they&#039;re obviously not all good teacher.  I found this perspective disturbing, as our school is considered one of the best in the country. Newsweek consistently ranks it in the top 250 and Pew says it&#039;s in the top thirty for college preparation - we had twenty-six National Merit Scholars this year.  Obviously, unions and tenure are not causing problems here.

Mort Zuckerman of US News recently noted, “nearly 90 percent of adults today complete high school compared with 33 percent in 1947.” Additionally, nearly 30 percent of the American population today has a college degree compared with 5 percent in 1947. That seems like some rather impressive progress. It’s hardly a ruined education system. While Americans regularly cite concerns about public schools, Gallup polls show seventy-five percent of Americans are “satisfied” or “very satisfied” with their children’s school. An even greater percentage of Americans (85%) are satisfied with their own education. So why all the criticism? Well, they’re obviously talking about other people’s schools.

That is the problem of looking at unions, tenure, and low dismissal rates and blaming them for poor performance in public schools.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting points, Greg.  Though, I have to say, in my sixteen years in public education in two separate states, I have encountered very different communities and school boards than you.  Never, in my experience, have I known school boards that are &#8220;stooges&#8221; to the local unions.  In fact, it&#8217;s always been the opposite.  I guess that is the nature of our disagreement.</p>
<p>Additionally, it seems there is a disconnect concerning the assumption that because more teachers aren&#8217;t being fired, that unions and tenure are at fault for perpetuating bad schools.  In fact, a community member of mine recently commented that unions are ruining education and we ought to immediately replace twenty percent of the staff because they&#8217;re obviously not all good teacher.  I found this perspective disturbing, as our school is considered one of the best in the country. Newsweek consistently ranks it in the top 250 and Pew says it&#8217;s in the top thirty for college preparation &#8211; we had twenty-six National Merit Scholars this year.  Obviously, unions and tenure are not causing problems here.</p>
<p>Mort Zuckerman of US News recently noted, “nearly 90 percent of adults today complete high school compared with 33 percent in 1947.” Additionally, nearly 30 percent of the American population today has a college degree compared with 5 percent in 1947. That seems like some rather impressive progress. It’s hardly a ruined education system. While Americans regularly cite concerns about public schools, Gallup polls show seventy-five percent of Americans are “satisfied” or “very satisfied” with their children’s school. An even greater percentage of Americans (85%) are satisfied with their own education. So why all the criticism? Well, they’re obviously talking about other people’s schools.</p>
<p>That is the problem of looking at unions, tenure, and low dismissal rates and blaming them for poor performance in public schools.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/07/policymaking-by-anecdote/#comment-2301</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1165#comment-2301</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We&#039;re not just talking about &quot;some school districts,&quot; we&#039;re talking about practically all of them. And it makes perfect sense - if the teachers&#039; unions are the primary political constituents of the very same school boards with whom they &quot;negotiate&quot; their contracts. How many people vote in school board elections? Answer: tons of them - mostly the countless thousands of people who make their living from the school system and their family members. If school board members want to get re-elected, they had better please the unions. But only in rare cases do school board members face a threat to re-election because they failed to stand up to the unions.

So this isn&#039;t a case of ineffective management. It&#039;s a case of very effective management - if by &quot;effective&quot; we mean that they accomplish what they want to accomplish and please their primary constituency.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;re not just talking about &#8220;some school districts,&#8221; we&#8217;re talking about practically all of them. And it makes perfect sense &#8211; if the teachers&#8217; unions are the primary political constituents of the very same school boards with whom they &#8220;negotiate&#8221; their contracts. How many people vote in school board elections? Answer: tons of them &#8211; mostly the countless thousands of people who make their living from the school system and their family members. If school board members want to get re-elected, they had better please the unions. But only in rare cases do school board members face a threat to re-election because they failed to stand up to the unions.</p>
<p>So this isn&#8217;t a case of ineffective management. It&#8217;s a case of very effective management &#8211; if by &#8220;effective&#8221; we mean that they accomplish what they want to accomplish and please their primary constituency.</p>
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		<title>By: michael mazenko</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/07/policymaking-by-anecdote/#comment-2299</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[michael mazenko]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 01:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1165#comment-2299</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Greg,

I have heard about the incredibly convoluted contracts that some school districts have which, in turn, make dismissing ineffective teachers cumbersome.  In fact, John Stossel made a point of posting the New York City public school&#039;s ridiculous contract during his show &quot;Stupid in America.&quot;

This, again, is the product of completely ineffective management.  Who signs a contract that makes it impossible to effectively manage workers and dismiss incompetent ones?  Agreeing to such a contract just makes no sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,</p>
<p>I have heard about the incredibly convoluted contracts that some school districts have which, in turn, make dismissing ineffective teachers cumbersome.  In fact, John Stossel made a point of posting the New York City public school&#8217;s ridiculous contract during his show &#8220;Stupid in America.&#8221;</p>
<p>This, again, is the product of completely ineffective management.  Who signs a contract that makes it impossible to effectively manage workers and dismiss incompetent ones?  Agreeing to such a contract just makes no sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/07/policymaking-by-anecdote/#comment-2297</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1165#comment-2297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the excellent discussion.

To Alsadius -- The .007% is 7 out of 95,500 teachers who are fired in a year in Illinois.  It&#039;s true that 1 in 930 (or .107%) receive an unsatisfactory review but only .007% are let go.

To Margo/Mom -- I agree that any organization needs to have some mix of trying to improve the employees they have, tolerating the limitations of the ones they can&#039;t improve, and terminating the ones that aren&#039;t acceptable.  My point is that schools are way out of balance, neither doing much to identify and improve sub-par teachers or terminating them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the excellent discussion.</p>
<p>To Alsadius &#8212; The .007% is 7 out of 95,500 teachers who are fired in a year in Illinois.  It&#8217;s true that 1 in 930 (or .107%) receive an unsatisfactory review but only .007% are let go.</p>
<p>To Margo/Mom &#8212; I agree that any organization needs to have some mix of trying to improve the employees they have, tolerating the limitations of the ones they can&#8217;t improve, and terminating the ones that aren&#8217;t acceptable.  My point is that schools are way out of balance, neither doing much to identify and improve sub-par teachers or terminating them.</p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/07/policymaking-by-anecdote/#comment-2296</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Margo/Mom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1165#comment-2296</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jay--thanks for the great post. But I would like to redirect the discussion towards a middle ground. It is not only fire incompetents vs life-time guaranteed employment.  Modern management theory centers around communication and supervision aimed at growth and improvement. I won&#039;t argue that this is necessarily done well--and Michael&#039;s point that businesses often live with incompetence rather than cure or get rid of it is well taken. By the same token, people sometimes lose jobs for little to no reason (business related or otherwise), and no protection. I would suggest that evaluation aimed at improvement is something of a rarety, either through ignorance, or simple reticence at telling people when they are not doing as well as might be preferred. 

Frankly, I&#039;m not sure what Art Siemens exemplifies because there seems to be a crucial factoid or two missing. I can only surmise that his talent at pushing kids over the AP mark was not balanced in other areas deemed to be more critical to the mission of the organization.  But you&#039;re right, as the case is now known, it does little to support either those who favor tenure or those who feel hamstrung by it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay&#8211;thanks for the great post. But I would like to redirect the discussion towards a middle ground. It is not only fire incompetents vs life-time guaranteed employment.  Modern management theory centers around communication and supervision aimed at growth and improvement. I won&#8217;t argue that this is necessarily done well&#8211;and Michael&#8217;s point that businesses often live with incompetence rather than cure or get rid of it is well taken. By the same token, people sometimes lose jobs for little to no reason (business related or otherwise), and no protection. I would suggest that evaluation aimed at improvement is something of a rarety, either through ignorance, or simple reticence at telling people when they are not doing as well as might be preferred. </p>
<p>Frankly, I&#8217;m not sure what Art Siemens exemplifies because there seems to be a crucial factoid or two missing. I can only surmise that his talent at pushing kids over the AP mark was not balanced in other areas deemed to be more critical to the mission of the organization.  But you&#8217;re right, as the case is now known, it does little to support either those who favor tenure or those who feel hamstrung by it.</p>
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		<title>By: Alsadius</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/07/policymaking-by-anecdote/#comment-2295</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alsadius]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1165#comment-2295</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You made a typo - 1 in 930 is 0.107%, not 0.007% - the latter would be around 1 in 14000. Other than that, though, good post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You made a typo &#8211; 1 in 930 is 0.107%, not 0.007% &#8211; the latter would be around 1 in 14000. Other than that, though, good post.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/07/policymaking-by-anecdote/#comment-2294</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1165#comment-2294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And is it a coincidence that the parts of the private sector that are still heavily unionized (which is what we&#039;re really talking about here) are the ones most likely to be in steep long-term decline? No wonder the unions are desperate to take away workers&#039; right to a secret ballot on forming a union - workers can see with their own eyes what happens to industries that unionize, and they&#039;re not interested in destroying their jobs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And is it a coincidence that the parts of the private sector that are still heavily unionized (which is what we&#8217;re really talking about here) are the ones most likely to be in steep long-term decline? No wonder the unions are desperate to take away workers&#8217; right to a secret ballot on forming a union &#8211; workers can see with their own eyes what happens to industries that unionize, and they&#8217;re not interested in destroying their jobs.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/07/policymaking-by-anecdote/#comment-2293</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1165#comment-2293</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is not accurate to say that &quot;the same is true&quot; in business; that employees have tenure.  The vast majority of private sector employees are employees at will, which means that they can be let go without the employer having to show cause.  Employers may not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, religion, etc... in terminating employees, but other than those restrictions there is nothing that stands in the way of people being let go in the private sector if it is an employee at will arrangement.  Only private sector workers with an employment contract that specifies the requirements for termination are not employees at will.

In addition, saying that it is &quot;pretty reasonable&quot; that one has to show cause underestimates the burden of demonstrating cause.  If I were to say that anyone who wanted to stop reading this blog only had to show cause to stop reading, that would be anything but reasonable.  Despite this blog&#039;s obsession with pop culture, endless inside jokes, and rapant sophistry you would have a hard time &quot;proving&quot; that it was not worthwhile. : )]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is not accurate to say that &#8220;the same is true&#8221; in business; that employees have tenure.  The vast majority of private sector employees are employees at will, which means that they can be let go without the employer having to show cause.  Employers may not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, religion, etc&#8230; in terminating employees, but other than those restrictions there is nothing that stands in the way of people being let go in the private sector if it is an employee at will arrangement.  Only private sector workers with an employment contract that specifies the requirements for termination are not employees at will.</p>
<p>In addition, saying that it is &#8220;pretty reasonable&#8221; that one has to show cause underestimates the burden of demonstrating cause.  If I were to say that anyone who wanted to stop reading this blog only had to show cause to stop reading, that would be anything but reasonable.  Despite this blog&#8217;s obsession with pop culture, endless inside jokes, and rapant sophistry you would have a hard time &#8220;proving&#8221; that it was not worthwhile. : )</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/07/policymaking-by-anecdote/#comment-2292</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:51:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=1165#comment-2292</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem is that schools can&#039;t fire a teacher &quot;for cause&quot; except by going through an incredibly cumbersome and unreliable system that effectively deters them from even trying in all but the most extreme cases. For example, in &lt;a href=&quot;http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/30/teacher-contracts-blame-states-too/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this post&lt;/a&gt; I reproduced a chart showing the steps you have to go through to fire a teacher in California. Not only is it amazingly long and requires administrators to invest tons of effort that they may not feel they can spare - and shouldn&#039;t have to - but there are also numerous chokepoints that allow union-dominated local school boards to block the process.

The stats referenced by Jay in this post tell the story - do you really think that only 0.007% of all teachers need to be fired? With the system failing the way it is?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that schools can&#8217;t fire a teacher &#8220;for cause&#8221; except by going through an incredibly cumbersome and unreliable system that effectively deters them from even trying in all but the most extreme cases. For example, in <a href="http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/30/teacher-contracts-blame-states-too/" rel="nofollow">this post</a> I reproduced a chart showing the steps you have to go through to fire a teacher in California. Not only is it amazingly long and requires administrators to invest tons of effort that they may not feel they can spare &#8211; and shouldn&#8217;t have to &#8211; but there are also numerous chokepoints that allow union-dominated local school boards to block the process.</p>
<p>The stats referenced by Jay in this post tell the story &#8211; do you really think that only 0.007% of all teachers need to be fired? With the system failing the way it is?</p>
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