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	<title>Comments on: Why Aren&#8217;t We Already Doing It?</title>
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	<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/19/why-arent-we-already-doing-it/</link>
	<description>With Help From Some Friends</description>
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		<title>By: Brian Kisida</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/19/why-arent-we-already-doing-it/#comment-1753</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Kisida]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:18:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-1753</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A movie was made about Ashton Kutcher losing his car.  I think a movie about him losing his car on his way to mathematics certification is certainly possible....sounds like fun.

Ashton: What kind of triangle is this?!

Buddy:  Right, dude.

Ashton: No, seriously, I need the answer.

Buddy: Right.

Ashton: Look you jerk, if I don&#039;t know the answer I&#039;ll never get certified!

Buddy: Right!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A movie was made about Ashton Kutcher losing his car.  I think a movie about him losing his car on his way to mathematics certification is certainly possible&#8230;.sounds like fun.</p>
<p>Ashton: What kind of triangle is this?!</p>
<p>Buddy:  Right, dude.</p>
<p>Ashton: No, seriously, I need the answer.</p>
<p>Buddy: Right.</p>
<p>Ashton: Look you jerk, if I don&#8217;t know the answer I&#8217;ll never get certified!</p>
<p>Buddy: Right!!</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/19/why-arent-we-already-doing-it/#comment-1751</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-1751</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Collin,

You have a good memory.  Murray does seem to say that on p 70: &quot;The most comprehensive modern surveys of the use of tests for hiring, promotion, and licensing, in civilian, military, private, and government occupations, repeatedly point to three conclusions about worker performance, as follows:

1) Job training and job peformance in many common occupationsare well predicted by any broadly based test of intelligence, as compared to narrower tests  more specifically targeted to the routines of the job.  As a corollary: Narrower tests that predict well do so largely because they happen themselves to be correlated with tests of general cognitive ability...&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Collin,</p>
<p>You have a good memory.  Murray does seem to say that on p 70: &#8220;The most comprehensive modern surveys of the use of tests for hiring, promotion, and licensing, in civilian, military, private, and government occupations, repeatedly point to three conclusions about worker performance, as follows:</p>
<p>1) Job training and job peformance in many common occupationsare well predicted by any broadly based test of intelligence, as compared to narrower tests  more specifically targeted to the routines of the job.  As a corollary: Narrower tests that predict well do so largely because they happen themselves to be correlated with tests of general cognitive ability&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/19/why-arent-we-already-doing-it/#comment-1750</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-1750</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jay: &quot; I don’t think Murray is opposed to a liberal arts college experience.&quot;

If so, the WSJ headline writers failed to capture that nuance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay: &#8221; I don’t think Murray is opposed to a liberal arts college experience.&#8221;</p>
<p>If so, the WSJ headline writers failed to capture that nuance.</p>
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		<title>By: Collin Hitt</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/19/why-arent-we-already-doing-it/#comment-1747</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Collin Hitt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-1747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t have my copy of the Bell Curve handy, but I think - somewhere around the beginning of Section II - Murray states that IQ tests are a better predictor of job performance than are aptitude tests tailored specifically for the profession.  Tests for highly technical professions (accounting, computer programming, etc.) may prove to be exceptions, but most people - and most college graduates - do not end up working in highly technical professions.

Now, I don&#039;t know, but doesn&#039;t Murray also argue that the graduates from college are, on average, smarter than non graduates?  And aren&#039;t the graduates of prestigious colleges smarter, on average, than graduates from lesser-known, less respected colleges?

Though a college degree is an imperfect indicator of intelligence, it is the closest, legally permissible test of IQ for which an employer is allowed to vet.  So, if IQ trumps job aptitude (for most job openings), and since a college degree is a decent indicator of IQ, isn&#039;t it just easier to rely on traditional credentials (for most professions)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have my copy of the Bell Curve handy, but I think &#8211; somewhere around the beginning of Section II &#8211; Murray states that IQ tests are a better predictor of job performance than are aptitude tests tailored specifically for the profession.  Tests for highly technical professions (accounting, computer programming, etc.) may prove to be exceptions, but most people &#8211; and most college graduates &#8211; do not end up working in highly technical professions.</p>
<p>Now, I don&#8217;t know, but doesn&#8217;t Murray also argue that the graduates from college are, on average, smarter than non graduates?  And aren&#8217;t the graduates of prestigious colleges smarter, on average, than graduates from lesser-known, less respected colleges?</p>
<p>Though a college degree is an imperfect indicator of intelligence, it is the closest, legally permissible test of IQ for which an employer is allowed to vet.  So, if IQ trumps job aptitude (for most job openings), and since a college degree is a decent indicator of IQ, isn&#8217;t it just easier to rely on traditional credentials (for most professions)?</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/19/why-arent-we-already-doing-it/#comment-1746</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:12:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-1746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think we are all mostly in agreement.  

In Murray&#039;s vision K-12 would cover the liberal arts and civic education.  Clearly that is not being done adequately now, but could K-12 do it if there were significant reform?

And I don&#039;t think Murray is opposed to a liberal arts college experience.  He is just arguing that that experience should not be required to enter the professions or skilled occupations.  People with wealth may want to indulge road trips with Ashton Kutcher or studying the Classics, but requiring that experience of the poor excludes them from the upward mobility of higher paying occupations.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we are all mostly in agreement.  </p>
<p>In Murray&#8217;s vision K-12 would cover the liberal arts and civic education.  Clearly that is not being done adequately now, but could K-12 do it if there were significant reform?</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t think Murray is opposed to a liberal arts college experience.  He is just arguing that that experience should not be required to enter the professions or skilled occupations.  People with wealth may want to indulge road trips with Ashton Kutcher or studying the Classics, but requiring that experience of the poor excludes them from the upward mobility of higher paying occupations.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/19/why-arent-we-already-doing-it/#comment-1745</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-1745</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Right, right - Murray sidesteps the question of whether college provides benefits other than job skills that are of interest to more than just the small number of people destined to be intellectuals.

Murder with statistics - the perfect crime!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, right &#8211; Murray sidesteps the question of whether college provides benefits other than job skills that are of interest to more than just the small number of people destined to be intellectuals.</p>
<p>Murder with statistics &#8211; the perfect crime!</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/19/why-arent-we-already-doing-it/#comment-1744</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-1744</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Jay half way.  I was obviously being tongue and cheek earlier, but I would rather pay for my child&#039;s college education than have them take a test that would guarantee the same economic/status outcomes.  I want my child (as I wanted and accomplished for myself) to have an intellectually rigorous college experience, to challenge himself/herself, but I recognize the large social benefits of the college experience.  I suspect Jay is right that some (many? most?) parents and students want some of the &quot;nonsense and inefficiency.&quot;  

I might also get a little Jeffersonian and argue that a liberal arts education - what possibly most universities are charged with delivering (I&#039;m sure Jay will murder me with statistics if I&#039;m wrong here, which is totally fine) - needs some time and exploration and yes, inefficiency.   How will one discover, say, the Classics or Renaissance art if not with the relative intellectual freedom afforded in college?  Perhaps that&#039;s not important, or perhaps in Murray&#039;s utopia the K-12 system accomplishes all that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Jay half way.  I was obviously being tongue and cheek earlier, but I would rather pay for my child&#8217;s college education than have them take a test that would guarantee the same economic/status outcomes.  I want my child (as I wanted and accomplished for myself) to have an intellectually rigorous college experience, to challenge himself/herself, but I recognize the large social benefits of the college experience.  I suspect Jay is right that some (many? most?) parents and students want some of the &#8220;nonsense and inefficiency.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I might also get a little Jeffersonian and argue that a liberal arts education &#8211; what possibly most universities are charged with delivering (I&#8217;m sure Jay will murder me with statistics if I&#8217;m wrong here, which is totally fine) &#8211; needs some time and exploration and yes, inefficiency.   How will one discover, say, the Classics or Renaissance art if not with the relative intellectual freedom afforded in college?  Perhaps that&#8217;s not important, or perhaps in Murray&#8217;s utopia the K-12 system accomplishes all that.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/19/why-arent-we-already-doing-it/#comment-1743</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-1743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not so sure.  I&#039;ve wondered for a long time why there is so much nonsense taught and inefficiency in the delivery of higher ed.  Some of the problem is that the people paying (parents and taxpayers) are usually different from the person receiving the service.  But I think it is also possible that parents and students, especially wealthier parents and students, actually want the nonsense and inefficiency.  It&#039;s like taking a summer trip around Europe.  They think it is a broadening experience and they don&#039;t want too many intellectual demands or an accelerated schedule to stand in the way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not so sure.  I&#8217;ve wondered for a long time why there is so much nonsense taught and inefficiency in the delivery of higher ed.  Some of the problem is that the people paying (parents and taxpayers) are usually different from the person receiving the service.  But I think it is also possible that parents and students, especially wealthier parents and students, actually want the nonsense and inefficiency.  It&#8217;s like taking a summer trip around Europe.  They think it is a broadening experience and they don&#8217;t want too many intellectual demands or an accelerated schedule to stand in the way.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/19/why-arent-we-already-doing-it/#comment-1742</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-1742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But the people who &quot;benefit&quot; from the Animal House experience, if you want to call it a benefit, are not the same people who pay for that experience.

You should be asking not &quot;who wants to be the first one to deny himself the college experience?&quot; but &quot;who wants to be the first one to deny his daughter the college experience?&quot;

Bet you&#039;d get a lot of takers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the people who &#8220;benefit&#8221; from the Animal House experience, if you want to call it a benefit, are not the same people who pay for that experience.</p>
<p>You should be asking not &#8220;who wants to be the first one to deny himself the college experience?&#8221; but &#8220;who wants to be the first one to deny his daughter the college experience?&#8221;</p>
<p>Bet you&#8217;d get a lot of takers.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/19/why-arent-we-already-doing-it/#comment-1740</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=641#comment-1740</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One insurmountable reason why this idea will not only never fly, but also never be considered: college is a lot of fun.  I mean, come on, how many movies do they make about college hijinks?  Does Murray really think people are going to start making movies with Ashton Kutcher getting into mischief on his way to getting his mathematics certification, or a bunch of young co-eds getting murdered by a deranged CPA exam proctor?  I&#039;m guessing Murray doesn&#039;t get out much.  

I would hate to have been his freshman roommate, I&#039;ll tell you that.  

Even if we can all agree that this is a great idea, who wants to be the first one to deny themselves &quot;the college experience&quot;?  If Murray could get both a time machine and God-like powers, and goes back in time to when I was in college and gave me the choice to pick between my inefficient four year degree and taking a few certificate tests, ten times out of ten I&#039;ll tell you what I&#039;m going to pick.  I&#039;ll leave Murray teary-eyed at the Kaplan testing center to go lounge on the Quad. 

Seriously though, this won&#039;t fly for the reasons you cogently argued, ones in my screed above, and a host of others.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One insurmountable reason why this idea will not only never fly, but also never be considered: college is a lot of fun.  I mean, come on, how many movies do they make about college hijinks?  Does Murray really think people are going to start making movies with Ashton Kutcher getting into mischief on his way to getting his mathematics certification, or a bunch of young co-eds getting murdered by a deranged CPA exam proctor?  I&#8217;m guessing Murray doesn&#8217;t get out much.  </p>
<p>I would hate to have been his freshman roommate, I&#8217;ll tell you that.  </p>
<p>Even if we can all agree that this is a great idea, who wants to be the first one to deny themselves &#8220;the college experience&#8221;?  If Murray could get both a time machine and God-like powers, and goes back in time to when I was in college and gave me the choice to pick between my inefficient four year degree and taking a few certificate tests, ten times out of ten I&#8217;ll tell you what I&#8217;m going to pick.  I&#8217;ll leave Murray teary-eyed at the Kaplan testing center to go lounge on the Quad. </p>
<p>Seriously though, this won&#8217;t fly for the reasons you cogently argued, ones in my screed above, and a host of others.</p>
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