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	<title>Comments on: AFT Goes Up in Smoke</title>
	<atom:link href="http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/06/aft-goes-up-in-smoke/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/06/aft-goes-up-in-smoke/</link>
	<description>With Help From Some Friends</description>
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		<title>By: Pajamas Media » Schools Are Not Social Service Centers</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/06/aft-goes-up-in-smoke/#comment-1784</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pajamas Media » Schools Are Not Social Service Centers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 08:08:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=495#comment-1784</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] friends Matt Ladner and Jay Greene call this education reform by dorm-room bull session. They imagine the meetings to [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] friends Matt Ladner and Jay Greene call this education reform by dorm-room bull session. They imagine the meetings to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MTheads</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/06/aft-goes-up-in-smoke/#comment-1705</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MTheads]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=495#comment-1705</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s easy to talk about how important art and music programs are, but why assume their quality is any higher than the school&#039;s poor reading programs?  Maybe the kids wouldn&#039;t be missing much by dropping them.  I get the feeling that for some people, &quot;art and music programs&quot; take on a religious quality where just saying the words is enough to enrich children&#039;s lives.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s easy to talk about how important art and music programs are, but why assume their quality is any higher than the school&#8217;s poor reading programs?  Maybe the kids wouldn&#8217;t be missing much by dropping them.  I get the feeling that for some people, &#8220;art and music programs&#8221; take on a religious quality where just saying the words is enough to enrich children&#8217;s lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Carnival of Education at Education for the Aughts - American School Issues and Analysis</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/06/aft-goes-up-in-smoke/#comment-1703</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carnival of Education at Education for the Aughts - American School Issues and Analysis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=495#comment-1703</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Ladner [on Jay Greene&#8217;s site] ushers in some common sense about inadequate schools being trusted with the physical health of [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ladner [on Jay Greene&#8217;s site] ushers in some common sense about inadequate schools being trusted with the physical health of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/06/aft-goes-up-in-smoke/#comment-1699</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:23:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=495#comment-1699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I commented on the CIA&#039;s 99 percent literacy claim here:

http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/10/learn-to-swim-by-drowning/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I commented on the CIA&#8217;s 99 percent literacy claim here:</p>
<p><a href="http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/10/learn-to-swim-by-drowning/" rel="nofollow">http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/10/learn-to-swim-by-drowning/</a></p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/06/aft-goes-up-in-smoke/#comment-1697</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=495#comment-1697</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The CIA must have an awfully forgiving definition of literacy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The CIA must have an awfully forgiving definition of literacy.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike in Texas</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/06/aft-goes-up-in-smoke/#comment-1692</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike in Texas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=495#comment-1692</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;They, in essence, just do what they do, which certainly helps explain how a school system could burn through tens of thousands of dollars without teaching a child to read.&lt;/i&gt;

Schools in the US must be doing something right, according to the CIA World Fact Book the US has a literacy rate of nearly 100%.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>They, in essence, just do what they do, which certainly helps explain how a school system could burn through tens of thousands of dollars without teaching a child to read.</i></p>
<p>Schools in the US must be doing something right, according to the CIA World Fact Book the US has a literacy rate of nearly 100%.</p>
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		<title>By: Dropout Nation &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Read</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/06/aft-goes-up-in-smoke/#comment-1634</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dropout Nation &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Read]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 10:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=495#comment-1634</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] do Cheech and Chong and Randi Weingarten and the American Federation of Teachers have in common: According to Matthew Ladner, both are, umm, up in [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] do Cheech and Chong and Randi Weingarten and the American Federation of Teachers have in common: According to Matthew Ladner, both are, umm, up in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/06/aft-goes-up-in-smoke/#comment-1633</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=495#comment-1633</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Margo/Mom-

I don&#039;t think I was attacking art/music/pe but simply posing the question: in a state with 44% of 4th graders scoring below basic on 4th grade reading, should we really be having children who haven&#039;t learned how to read taking such courses? You may be right that schools could focus more funds on early reading instruction without having positive results, but schools should not go on ignoring the problem. Time is a limited resource just like money, and a school should have no thought for an elementary school aged illiterate other than getting them to read while they still can, in my opinion. If an arts program can measurably contribute to that, I&#039;m all for it. If not, I&#039;d happily look to use those funds for something that could do so. One thing is for certain: when almost half of your 4th graders can&#039;t read, you can&#039;t afford any sacred cows.

On your point about European social welfare states and education scores, it is true that Europeans score better than Americans on international academic examinations, but it is not necessarily the case that social welfare policy can explain the difference. Eastern European countries often outscore Americans without cradle to grave welfare states. A number of European countries have a per-capita income below that of the poorest American state, but knock our socks off in international scores, while spending less money per pupil.

For a good read on what the Europeans seem to be doing right, and we seem to be doing wrong in education, see this report:

http://www.mckinsey.com/clientservice/socialsector/resources/pdf/Worlds_School_Systems_Final.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Margo/Mom-</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think I was attacking art/music/pe but simply posing the question: in a state with 44% of 4th graders scoring below basic on 4th grade reading, should we really be having children who haven&#8217;t learned how to read taking such courses? You may be right that schools could focus more funds on early reading instruction without having positive results, but schools should not go on ignoring the problem. Time is a limited resource just like money, and a school should have no thought for an elementary school aged illiterate other than getting them to read while they still can, in my opinion. If an arts program can measurably contribute to that, I&#8217;m all for it. If not, I&#8217;d happily look to use those funds for something that could do so. One thing is for certain: when almost half of your 4th graders can&#8217;t read, you can&#8217;t afford any sacred cows.</p>
<p>On your point about European social welfare states and education scores, it is true that Europeans score better than Americans on international academic examinations, but it is not necessarily the case that social welfare policy can explain the difference. Eastern European countries often outscore Americans without cradle to grave welfare states. A number of European countries have a per-capita income below that of the poorest American state, but knock our socks off in international scores, while spending less money per pupil.</p>
<p>For a good read on what the Europeans seem to be doing right, and we seem to be doing wrong in education, see this report:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mckinsey.com/clientservice/socialsector/resources/pdf/Worlds_School_Systems_Final.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.mckinsey.com/clientservice/socialsector/resources/pdf/Worlds_School_Systems_Final.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/06/aft-goes-up-in-smoke/#comment-1632</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Margo/Mom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=495#comment-1632</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matthew, I was with you up until the point where you started attacking art, music and physical education. While the data is a bit hard to come up with--as you allude--I believe that there are districts who have earnestly ditched art, music and physical education in an effort to improve reading, and I am thinking that the results are only marginally improved. I also believe that somewhere way back when my district piloted an enriched arts program they did accumulate some data showing that scores in reading (this was way back in the dark ages before NCLB) did improve. 

My district also paid for a curriculum audit (again, prior to NCLB) to find out that it was very difficult to give any meaningful feedback on lots and lots of programs (that teachers liked and swore were &quot;working&quot; because there was typically no evaluation done.

I am not impressed by bigger, bolder, for many fo the same reasons that you point out (they can&#039;t teach and now they want to be doctors?)--as well as a basic belief that it&#039;s a smoke screen that serves to avoid looking at some things that educators need to take on about what works and what doesn&#039;t.  But it is true (and there appears to be some solid research to demonstrate a connection) that in countries where such things and a basic child income, minimum level of health care, parental leave, early childhood education and child care are attended to that the kids on the bottom of the heap are doing better in relation to the ones at the top (and the ones at the top are typically ahead of ours).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew, I was with you up until the point where you started attacking art, music and physical education. While the data is a bit hard to come up with&#8211;as you allude&#8211;I believe that there are districts who have earnestly ditched art, music and physical education in an effort to improve reading, and I am thinking that the results are only marginally improved. I also believe that somewhere way back when my district piloted an enriched arts program they did accumulate some data showing that scores in reading (this was way back in the dark ages before NCLB) did improve. </p>
<p>My district also paid for a curriculum audit (again, prior to NCLB) to find out that it was very difficult to give any meaningful feedback on lots and lots of programs (that teachers liked and swore were &#8220;working&#8221; because there was typically no evaluation done.</p>
<p>I am not impressed by bigger, bolder, for many fo the same reasons that you point out (they can&#8217;t teach and now they want to be doctors?)&#8211;as well as a basic belief that it&#8217;s a smoke screen that serves to avoid looking at some things that educators need to take on about what works and what doesn&#8217;t.  But it is true (and there appears to be some solid research to demonstrate a connection) that in countries where such things and a basic child income, minimum level of health care, parental leave, early childhood education and child care are attended to that the kids on the bottom of the heap are doing better in relation to the ones at the top (and the ones at the top are typically ahead of ours).</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/08/06/aft-goes-up-in-smoke/#comment-1625</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=495#comment-1625</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the tip of the hat Matt. Here is my wag of the finger to public education spending:

 http://npri.org/blog/think-gas-prices-are-high-think-again

I found that the inflation adjusted per-pupil spending on public education from 1961-2005 increased 247%. If gas prices had risen that fast we would pay $6.18 today. (Simply used NCES inflation adjusted estimates found here: http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66).

(Controlling for inflation to 2008 and assuming NCES estimates including capital costs for public education the rise is 293% from 1961-2007 or, $7.34 a gallon for gasoline. So $6.18 a gallon is the very conservative estimate.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the tip of the hat Matt. Here is my wag of the finger to public education spending:</p>
<p> <a href="http://npri.org/blog/think-gas-prices-are-high-think-again" rel="nofollow">http://npri.org/blog/think-gas-prices-are-high-think-again</a></p>
<p>I found that the inflation adjusted per-pupil spending on public education from 1961-2005 increased 247%. If gas prices had risen that fast we would pay $6.18 today. (Simply used NCES inflation adjusted estimates found here: <a href="http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66" rel="nofollow">http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66</a>).</p>
<p>(Controlling for inflation to 2008 and assuming NCES estimates including capital costs for public education the rise is 293% from 1961-2007 or, $7.34 a gallon for gasoline. So $6.18 a gallon is the very conservative estimate.)</p>
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