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	<title>Comments on: NCLB: Less Than Meets the Eye, More Than Nothing</title>
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	<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/29/nclb-less-than-meets-the-eye-more-than-nothing/</link>
	<description>With Help From Some Friends</description>
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		<title>By: Obama: Educate from birth through college at Joanne Jacobs</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/29/nclb-less-than-meets-the-eye-more-than-nothing/#comment-1961</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Obama: Educate from birth through college at Joanne Jacobs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 01:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=386#comment-1961</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] education spending has increased by 41 percent since the passage of No Child Left [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] education spending has increased by 41 percent since the passage of No Child Left [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/29/nclb-less-than-meets-the-eye-more-than-nothing/#comment-1601</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=386#comment-1601</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brendan makes a fair point that accountability testing prior to NCLB often did not cover as many grades.  But that sounds like a bad thing to me since educators would lack information about the year-to-year progress students are making (or not making).  Regardless of whether you want to attach consequences to testing, shouldn&#039;t educators want to be able to track how individual students are doing over time, just like how doctors track basic measures of health (weight, height, blood pressure, etc...)?

And Brendan is simply wrong in claiming that &quot;standardized tests are enormously expensive.&quot;  Caroline Hoxby has calculated that testing costs, on average, $5.81 per pupil, or less than one-tenth of one percent of school spending.  See http://www.nber.org/digest/sep02/w8855.html .

Lastly, total federal spending amounts to just 8% of school spending, including federal contributions to special ed, ELL, Title I, etc...  If the financial (or educational) burden of complying with NCLB were so great, states could opt out.  The fact that they don&#039;t suggests that they receive more than they spend.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brendan makes a fair point that accountability testing prior to NCLB often did not cover as many grades.  But that sounds like a bad thing to me since educators would lack information about the year-to-year progress students are making (or not making).  Regardless of whether you want to attach consequences to testing, shouldn&#8217;t educators want to be able to track how individual students are doing over time, just like how doctors track basic measures of health (weight, height, blood pressure, etc&#8230;)?</p>
<p>And Brendan is simply wrong in claiming that &#8220;standardized tests are enormously expensive.&#8221;  Caroline Hoxby has calculated that testing costs, on average, $5.81 per pupil, or less than one-tenth of one percent of school spending.  See <a href="http://www.nber.org/digest/sep02/w8855.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nber.org/digest/sep02/w8855.html</a> .</p>
<p>Lastly, total federal spending amounts to just 8% of school spending, including federal contributions to special ed, ELL, Title I, etc&#8230;  If the financial (or educational) burden of complying with NCLB were so great, states could opt out.  The fact that they don&#8217;t suggests that they receive more than they spend.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/29/nclb-less-than-meets-the-eye-more-than-nothing/#comment-1599</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brendan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=386#comment-1599</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Some deceptive misconceptions. 
First, most schools that had testing prior to NCLB only tested in specific years. Meaning a student would be tested in certain subjects only once every few years. 
Second, standardized tests are enormously expensive. From what I understand that is considered the unfunded portion of NCLB. 
Third, Title I money is usually a huge portion of the funding for many low SES schools. To take that away would force many of those schools to close. So in effect it is a mandate for many of our poorest schools. 
I don&#039;t have a problem with asking for accountability for teachers. I have a problem with the way that this so called accountability is measured.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some deceptive misconceptions.<br />
First, most schools that had testing prior to NCLB only tested in specific years. Meaning a student would be tested in certain subjects only once every few years.<br />
Second, standardized tests are enormously expensive. From what I understand that is considered the unfunded portion of NCLB.<br />
Third, Title I money is usually a huge portion of the funding for many low SES schools. To take that away would force many of those schools to close. So in effect it is a mandate for many of our poorest schools.<br />
I don&#8217;t have a problem with asking for accountability for teachers. I have a problem with the way that this so called accountability is measured.</p>
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		<title>By: Required Reading at The Core Knowledge Blog</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/29/nclb-less-than-meets-the-eye-more-than-nothing/#comment-1584</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Required Reading at The Core Knowledge Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:23:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=386#comment-1584</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] NCLB: Less Than Meets the Eye, More Than Nothing at Jay P. Greene&#8217;s Blog NCLB is neither being unfunded nor a mandate.  It’s as if the unfunded mandate crowd is saying: “The $10,000 per pupil we already get just pays for warehousing. If you actually want us to educate kids, that’ll cost ya extra.” [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] NCLB: Less Than Meets the Eye, More Than Nothing at Jay P. Greene&#8217;s Blog NCLB is neither being unfunded nor a mandate.  It’s as if the unfunded mandate crowd is saying: “The $10,000 per pupil we already get just pays for warehousing. If you actually want us to educate kids, that’ll cost ya extra.” [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/29/nclb-less-than-meets-the-eye-more-than-nothing/#comment-1569</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=386#comment-1569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Margo/Mom -- Thanks for your thoughtful comments!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Margo/Mom &#8212; Thanks for your thoughtful comments!</p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/29/nclb-less-than-meets-the-eye-more-than-nothing/#comment-1568</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Margo/Mom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=386#comment-1568</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jay:

This is an important piece of truthtelling as the death of NCLB has already been hearkened as the next silver bullet to save American Education. 

I don&#039;t know if I can add anything to get this discussion back to a more intellectual level--but I do think that we seriously need to stick to &quot;just the facts ma&#039;am,&quot; and stay away from the conspiracy theories about vouchers and the old fall back, &quot;why don&#039;t you spend a few days in a public school.&quot; In fact I have spent more than a few days--as a substitute teacher. The things that I saw convinced me of the unevenness of the skills and ability of teachers from building to building, of the factors that build a learning environment and of basic respect for students, parents and the community in which they live.

Each year that passes without substantive reform (and recall that the United States leads the world in our commitment of financial resources to education) is a year in the life of a child, a year that cannot be replaced, a year that is increasingly difficult to remediate as time goes one. We don&#039;t have time for all this denial of the problems.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay:</p>
<p>This is an important piece of truthtelling as the death of NCLB has already been hearkened as the next silver bullet to save American Education. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if I can add anything to get this discussion back to a more intellectual level&#8211;but I do think that we seriously need to stick to &#8220;just the facts ma&#8217;am,&#8221; and stay away from the conspiracy theories about vouchers and the old fall back, &#8220;why don&#8217;t you spend a few days in a public school.&#8221; In fact I have spent more than a few days&#8211;as a substitute teacher. The things that I saw convinced me of the unevenness of the skills and ability of teachers from building to building, of the factors that build a learning environment and of basic respect for students, parents and the community in which they live.</p>
<p>Each year that passes without substantive reform (and recall that the United States leads the world in our commitment of financial resources to education) is a year in the life of a child, a year that cannot be replaced, a year that is increasingly difficult to remediate as time goes one. We don&#8217;t have time for all this denial of the problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Surprise! You&#8217;re supposed to teach kids at Joanne Jacobs</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/29/nclb-less-than-meets-the-eye-more-than-nothing/#comment-1565</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Surprise! You&#8217;re supposed to teach kids at Joanne Jacobs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=386#comment-1565</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] call it an &#8220;unfunded mandate,&#8221; notes Jay Greene. But what did schools think they were supposed to be doing pre-NCLB? Surely, they were trying to teach reading and math all along, he points out.  Let’s [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] call it an &#8220;unfunded mandate,&#8221; notes Jay Greene. But what did schools think they were supposed to be doing pre-NCLB? Surely, they were trying to teach reading and math all along, he points out.  Let’s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/29/nclb-less-than-meets-the-eye-more-than-nothing/#comment-1560</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=386#comment-1560</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ryan-

The evidence doesn&#039;t begin and end with NAEP, although NAEP equates pretty readily with international exams of proficiency. See for instance this 2006 American Institutes for Research study of the literacy skills of American college students that finds More than 75 percent of students at 2-year colleges and more than 50 percent of students at 4-year colleges do not score at the proficient level of literacy, meaning that they lack the skills to perform complex literacy tasks, such as summarizing the arguments of newspaper editorials:

http://www.air.org/news/documents/Release200601pew.htm


tft-

I&#039;m not sure what you define as a privatized school, but the total percentage of American students who attend them would be extremely modest regardless of how you define it.

I brought up NAEP (and now AIR) simply to make the point that we have severe education problems that existed before NCLB, and that NCLB has partially made more transparent (so far). The state of Florida has had success with a comprehensive education reform that included the grading of schools (among a lot of other things) and their percentage of students scoring basic or better went from 53 percent in 1998 to 70 in 2007.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan-</p>
<p>The evidence doesn&#8217;t begin and end with NAEP, although NAEP equates pretty readily with international exams of proficiency. See for instance this 2006 American Institutes for Research study of the literacy skills of American college students that finds More than 75 percent of students at 2-year colleges and more than 50 percent of students at 4-year colleges do not score at the proficient level of literacy, meaning that they lack the skills to perform complex literacy tasks, such as summarizing the arguments of newspaper editorials:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.air.org/news/documents/Release200601pew.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.air.org/news/documents/Release200601pew.htm</a></p>
<p>tft-</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what you define as a privatized school, but the total percentage of American students who attend them would be extremely modest regardless of how you define it.</p>
<p>I brought up NAEP (and now AIR) simply to make the point that we have severe education problems that existed before NCLB, and that NCLB has partially made more transparent (so far). The state of Florida has had success with a comprehensive education reform that included the grading of schools (among a lot of other things) and their percentage of students scoring basic or better went from 53 percent in 1998 to 70 in 2007.</p>
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		<title>By: tft</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/29/nclb-less-than-meets-the-eye-more-than-nothing/#comment-1559</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tft]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=386#comment-1559</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[matthewlander, you can easily check where I&#039;m from.  Did I say something about the NAEP?  I don&#039;t remember that.  If your talking about my reference to labeling, it was a characterization of another poster&#039;s comment referring to NCLB&#039;s function as a way to label schools and teachers failures so the whole thing can be privatized.  It&#039;s working!

As for the below basic problem, with which I sympathize, in my district we just instituted ULSS and have decided that the first level of intervention (not tier!) is the classroom.  In other words, the kids who need intervention services &quot;funded&quot; by NCLB, just get their teacher.

But we could just opt out, right?

You come from Arizona?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>matthewlander, you can easily check where I&#8217;m from.  Did I say something about the NAEP?  I don&#8217;t remember that.  If your talking about my reference to labeling, it was a characterization of another poster&#8217;s comment referring to NCLB&#8217;s function as a way to label schools and teachers failures so the whole thing can be privatized.  It&#8217;s working!</p>
<p>As for the below basic problem, with which I sympathize, in my district we just instituted ULSS and have decided that the first level of intervention (not tier!) is the classroom.  In other words, the kids who need intervention services &#8220;funded&#8221; by NCLB, just get their teacher.</p>
<p>But we could just opt out, right?</p>
<p>You come from Arizona?</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/29/nclb-less-than-meets-the-eye-more-than-nothing/#comment-1557</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:34:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=386#comment-1557</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[matthew:  I don&#039;t disagree that there are failing schools; I&#039;m just not sure that the NAEP is the best judge of whether a school is failing.  I tend to have more faith in state level assessments based off of state level standards, and while that system is certainly ripe for shenanigans it&#039;s the one that I&#039;ve been able to watch the most.  With the NAEP I don&#039;t know what standards the test is written to, nor am I able to make school-to-school comparisons.

If you want to really frustrate a group of teachers, tell them to get the NAEP scores up.  They&#039;ll run you out of town on a rail.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>matthew:  I don&#8217;t disagree that there are failing schools; I&#8217;m just not sure that the NAEP is the best judge of whether a school is failing.  I tend to have more faith in state level assessments based off of state level standards, and while that system is certainly ripe for shenanigans it&#8217;s the one that I&#8217;ve been able to watch the most.  With the NAEP I don&#8217;t know what standards the test is written to, nor am I able to make school-to-school comparisons.</p>
<p>If you want to really frustrate a group of teachers, tell them to get the NAEP scores up.  They&#8217;ll run you out of town on a rail.</p>
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