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	<title>Comments on: John Rawls and Education Reform</title>
	<atom:link href="http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/09/john-rawls-and-education-reform/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/09/john-rawls-and-education-reform/</link>
	<description>With Help From Some Friends</description>
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		<title>By: The Carnival of Education, #180</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/09/john-rawls-and-education-reform/#comment-1451</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Carnival of Education, #180]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=256#comment-1451</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Matthew Ladner is wondering how to get more effective teachers into our classrooms. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Matthew Ladner is wondering how to get more effective teachers into our classrooms. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/09/john-rawls-and-education-reform/#comment-1378</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=256#comment-1378</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Some blame Star Wars for the creation of crappy CGI dominated summer blockbusters like, oh, Twister. I would have loved to have been in the pitch meeting for Twister btw:

&quot;Our cgi guys can make some really realistic looking tornadoes tearing stuff up. We threw together a plot where some people chase tornadoes around Oklahoma- flying cows, Jack Nicholson&#039;s head shredded on a drive in movie screen, songs from Van Halen. We&#039;re going to be soooooo rich!&quot;

I personally don&#039;t hold Lucas responsible for Twister. I do hold him partially responsible for the latest crappy Indiana Jones flick, and for Jar Jar Binks.

Likewise, there is only so much you can hold Rawls responsible for the way people have used his work. In Miller&#039;s version of Rawls, Rawls in the end was not a socialist at all.

Matthew Miller&#039;s discussion of Rawls contains a very interesting interview with Milton Friedman. I highly recommend it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some blame Star Wars for the creation of crappy CGI dominated summer blockbusters like, oh, Twister. I would have loved to have been in the pitch meeting for Twister btw:</p>
<p>&#8220;Our cgi guys can make some really realistic looking tornadoes tearing stuff up. We threw together a plot where some people chase tornadoes around Oklahoma- flying cows, Jack Nicholson&#8217;s head shredded on a drive in movie screen, songs from Van Halen. We&#8217;re going to be soooooo rich!&#8221;</p>
<p>I personally don&#8217;t hold Lucas responsible for Twister. I do hold him partially responsible for the latest crappy Indiana Jones flick, and for Jar Jar Binks.</p>
<p>Likewise, there is only so much you can hold Rawls responsible for the way people have used his work. In Miller&#8217;s version of Rawls, Rawls in the end was not a socialist at all.</p>
<p>Matthew Miller&#8217;s discussion of Rawls contains a very interesting interview with Milton Friedman. I highly recommend it.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Kisida</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/09/john-rawls-and-education-reform/#comment-1377</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Kisida]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:59:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=256#comment-1377</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Now Greg&#039;s attacks on Rawlsian discourse sound like Eduwonkette&#039;s attacks on Greene and Winters.  You are essentially saying the Rawlsian perspective is only a front to justify socialism and should therefore be dismissed.  This is the eleventh post in this thread, yet very little progress has been made regarding anything Matt originally wrote.  None of your criticisms so far have anything to do with Rawls&#039; ideas. You have attacked it on the grounds that it is malleable, popular, and now said it has questionable motives.  This just makes me tired.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now Greg&#8217;s attacks on Rawlsian discourse sound like Eduwonkette&#8217;s attacks on Greene and Winters.  You are essentially saying the Rawlsian perspective is only a front to justify socialism and should therefore be dismissed.  This is the eleventh post in this thread, yet very little progress has been made regarding anything Matt originally wrote.  None of your criticisms so far have anything to do with Rawls&#8217; ideas. You have attacked it on the grounds that it is malleable, popular, and now said it has questionable motives.  This just makes me tired.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/09/john-rawls-and-education-reform/#comment-1374</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=256#comment-1374</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s close, but not quite right. When the government is behaving conservatively, Rawlsian discourse opposes it. The real purpose of Rawlsian discourse is to justify whatever the government of Sweden was doing in the 1960s. The joke is, even the Swedes got over their worship of socialism eventually - they even have universal vouchers! What they wouldn&#039;t learn the easy way (from reason) they learned the hard way (from experience). But Rawlsian discourse is never corrected by feedback from practical application.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s close, but not quite right. When the government is behaving conservatively, Rawlsian discourse opposes it. The real purpose of Rawlsian discourse is to justify whatever the government of Sweden was doing in the 1960s. The joke is, even the Swedes got over their worship of socialism eventually &#8211; they even have universal vouchers! What they wouldn&#8217;t learn the easy way (from reason) they learned the hard way (from experience). But Rawlsian discourse is never corrected by feedback from practical application.</p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/09/john-rawls-and-education-reform/#comment-1363</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 22:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=256#comment-1363</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Me-ow!

Check out Matthew Miller&#039;s treatment of Rawls in the 2% Solution. Now, Miller comes up with a number of policy recommendations that I don&#039;t support, and one can&#039;t help but wonder if the things he advocates are so great, why don&#039;t divert resources within the existing structure out of unproductive sectors into these new fabulous ones.

Miller&#039;s treatment of Rawls, however, is extremely interesting, and seems quite at odds with the way he is actually used in practice, which seems all too often to be as a justifying myth for the status quo of whatever the government happens to be doing now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Me-ow!</p>
<p>Check out Matthew Miller&#8217;s treatment of Rawls in the 2% Solution. Now, Miller comes up with a number of policy recommendations that I don&#8217;t support, and one can&#8217;t help but wonder if the things he advocates are so great, why don&#8217;t divert resources within the existing structure out of unproductive sectors into these new fabulous ones.</p>
<p>Miller&#8217;s treatment of Rawls, however, is extremely interesting, and seems quite at odds with the way he is actually used in practice, which seems all too often to be as a justifying myth for the status quo of whatever the government happens to be doing now.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/09/john-rawls-and-education-reform/#comment-1359</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=256#comment-1359</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s exactly the kind of thinking that most Rawlsians really do advocate! Of course you&#039;re right that there&#039;s no evidence for it, but evidence generally plays no role in Rawlsian thinking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s exactly the kind of thinking that most Rawlsians really do advocate! Of course you&#8217;re right that there&#8217;s no evidence for it, but evidence generally plays no role in Rawlsian thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/09/john-rawls-and-education-reform/#comment-1358</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=256#comment-1358</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Greg-

Perhaps I should say &quot;cannot credibly&quot; use Rawls to justify anything. You can of course twist anything to support anything. A Rawlsian could try, for example, to say that the putrid condition of schools in DCPS at $20,000 per kid justify moving to $40,000 per kid.

The problem is, there&#039;s no evidence whatsoever to suggest that such a move would actually benefit the kids in DCPS.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg-</p>
<p>Perhaps I should say &#8220;cannot credibly&#8221; use Rawls to justify anything. You can of course twist anything to support anything. A Rawlsian could try, for example, to say that the putrid condition of schools in DCPS at $20,000 per kid justify moving to $40,000 per kid.</p>
<p>The problem is, there&#8217;s no evidence whatsoever to suggest that such a move would actually benefit the kids in DCPS.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Kisida</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/09/john-rawls-and-education-reform/#comment-1357</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Kisida]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 18:45:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=256#comment-1357</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that the standard that Greg applies to argue the uselessness of Rawls is insufficient.  He says that Rawls can be used to advocate anything, and that is why it is a) popular, and b) useless.  I agree there is a relationship between the broad scope (malleablity maybe?) of a philosophy and its popularity, I just don&#039;t think that is what would qualify as making a philosophy useless.  If we applied the same criteria to religious philosophy, the first two criteria would almost always apply (malleability, popularity).  In fact, religious philososphies would undoubtedly hold the top spot on this &quot;uselessness&quot; index.  

I think the &#039;veil of ignorance&#039; concept is a very useful concept, perhaps because of the same reasons Greg dislikes it.

Greg&#039;s post didn&#039;t touch much on the veil though, he relied more on Rawls&#039; justification for inequality.  In doing so, I think he came pretty close to advocating universal choice from a Rawlsian perspective.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the standard that Greg applies to argue the uselessness of Rawls is insufficient.  He says that Rawls can be used to advocate anything, and that is why it is a) popular, and b) useless.  I agree there is a relationship between the broad scope (malleablity maybe?) of a philosophy and its popularity, I just don&#8217;t think that is what would qualify as making a philosophy useless.  If we applied the same criteria to religious philosophy, the first two criteria would almost always apply (malleability, popularity).  In fact, religious philososphies would undoubtedly hold the top spot on this &#8220;uselessness&#8221; index.  </p>
<p>I think the &#8216;veil of ignorance&#8217; concept is a very useful concept, perhaps because of the same reasons Greg dislikes it.</p>
<p>Greg&#8217;s post didn&#8217;t touch much on the veil though, he relied more on Rawls&#8217; justification for inequality.  In doing so, I think he came pretty close to advocating universal choice from a Rawlsian perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/09/john-rawls-and-education-reform/#comment-1348</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=256#comment-1348</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, really? You haven&#039;t read much of the Rawlsian literature lately. Of course, your statement would be true if you began from the assumption that political theorists are not so totally enslaved to a quasi-socialist ideology that they are capable of ignoring all the patently obvious facts that disprove it; but that would clearly be what they call a &quot;heroic assumption.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, really? You haven&#8217;t read much of the Rawlsian literature lately. Of course, your statement would be true if you began from the assumption that political theorists are not so totally enslaved to a quasi-socialist ideology that they are capable of ignoring all the patently obvious facts that disprove it; but that would clearly be what they call a &#8220;heroic assumption.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: MatthewLadner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/07/09/john-rawls-and-education-reform/#comment-1338</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MatthewLadner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=256#comment-1338</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Greg that Rawls could be used to justify a lot of things, but I don&#039;t agree that it could be used to justify anything. For example, one would be hard pressed to use Rawls to justify something like the status-quo for inner city public schooling...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Greg that Rawls could be used to justify a lot of things, but I don&#8217;t agree that it could be used to justify anything. For example, one would be hard pressed to use Rawls to justify something like the status-quo for inner city public schooling&#8230;</p>
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