Comments on: I’ll Have What Florida is Having

By: Diane Hanfmann

Diane Hanfmann — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:16:54 +0000

Palm Beach Post offers more reasons to immediately take back your order of what Florida is having. Florida SAT Reading- tied for 38, Math tied for 47, writing tied for 44.
Note the disparity between Writing proficiency on our state test, where it is very high, and the paltry 44 on the SAT. Please also note that the legislators have lowered the bar in Writing on our standardized test by excluding a multiple choice section of capitalization, punctuation, and grammar. Some may see this as politically lowering standards to benfit the adults by creation of better data. Please immediately scream for change in Florida.

By: Diane Hanfmann

Diane Hanfmann — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:11:09 +0000

I read Dr. Morris’s work and I see you have received it as well. It put before your eyes
data showing the A+ plan fails to provide accurate information about instructional effectiveness. What is your response? The typical response of others has been to have no response, thus keeping this awful system in place. I await your response.

By: Diane Hanfmann

Diane Hanfmann — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:13:19 +0000

I went to the ACT website and looked at the for journalist section and research policy briefs. Either I missed theri blurb about comparisons or I looke din the wrong place.
Can you direct me? I did see a chart of each of the states with their data listed.

By: Diane Hanfmann

Diane Hanfmann — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:42:41 +0000

My mistake. The article was about the achievement gap as it exists in the 10th grade FCAT results, not the ACT.
I can understand the pitfalls in comparing ACT scores, which are made all the time, but are you trying to present an idea that Florida would actually be worth having, to use your words? I would market
top scorers’ strategies. Are you leaving open a possibility that you think Florida could actually be in the top 5 rather than 48? At least we got results and not just the pathetic statement fo more test takers.
I think I noted earlier 78% of our college students needing remediation and included the possibility of finding a lower percentage. However, our diploma seems to not equate with college readiness.
How did you like my money saver? I find it clever.
Please ask for your earlier list of traits in your8/12 7:57 post and not Jeb style.
Florida has testing, but using a state test which is not able to be seen by a parent once scored. We already had one documented episode of scoring error which was addressed a year later and an error eithin the test was noted. The BUROS Institute
investigated and suggested high stakes not be tied to a single indicator. That situation remains in elementary and middle schools nonetheless. I would place our access to data as our strength.
I think we have excellent and superb access to data but I think I might be one of the few who understands how to mine that for gold. We do not use a value added approach. In my district, you access your child’s results via internet and must request a hard copy from the school. We have some school choice.
Florida’s 4th grade Hispanic scores are from a filtered sample. Hispanic children who could not meet criteria for passing third grade are not in the sample. If you would like to pass this around as a boast, wouldn’t it be honest and accurate to include the state
has a filtered fourth grade population and why?
We really have come to major agreements with what we want. Let’s scream for them!

By: Diane Hanfmann

Diane Hanfmann — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:13:10 +0000

Palm Beach Post: 6/14/08
In 01, 37% of Florida’s tenth graders read on grade level. In ’08, 38% read on grade level. The cheer comes when???? Wasn’t the 08 class of tenth graders the first to have full effect of the F-A+ plan? My memory is that is the case.

Statewide, Florida’s ACT scores declined .6 in 5 years.

I did find some disaggregated data on the ACT. I will post it if I can find it again.

By: matthewladner

matthewladner — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 03:34:01 +0000

The ACT test is a self-selected group. If you go to their website, you can find that they specifically tell people not to compare states based upon their scores.

By: Diane Hanfmann

Diane Hanfmann — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 23:38:32 +0000

Updated reason to not have what Florida is having taken from Palm Beach Post, 8/13/08 regarding ACT scores and Hispanics. The discrepancy between whites and Hispanics has increased from 2.2 in 04 to 2.8 in 08. Only 2 states performed worse than Florida. They would be Mississippi and Michigan. DC also scored worse. Folllowing a national trend, more test takers were cited in Florida.

By: Diane Hanfmann

Diane Hanfmann — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:26:03 +0000

I like your second paragraph ALOT. Let’s have that, not Florida’s mess. I’ll have what your middle paragraph is having!

Keeping in character, I must speak to the placement of mandatory retention at grade 3, which directly effects the grade 4 population. I have not found anything good about the results of grade 10 students on the FCAT as they are to be the first class to have been subjected to the F-A+ plan since grade 3. Perhaps you mean the grade 8 NAEP kids, I don’t know. I know is the bar has been lowered this year and there are alot of A schools and too many people are naively joyous, believing that A grade means something it does not. I know grammar, spelling, and punctuation will not even be taken next year, only a composition portion which yields quite high passing rates where as the soon to be extinct language mechanics did not. With no NRT and end of year exams, it will be difficult to get comparisons. Last year, we heard all about the increased number of AP and SAT takers. Such relatively useless info was everywhere and I suppose I was supposed to celebrate. Instead, I was left wondering exactly what i s the glorious ramification of number of test takers as a result. What about the results??? Now increased numbers in AP can boost school grades so I imagine my cat, dogs, and hamsters may be seated next to my son in an AP class. YIKES!
I have a budget saving idea you might like. If all we will be hearing is how many people took a test, why not just count the people who show up for testing day and then send them home? Look, we could save money on tests, supervisors, scoring, training,
and less energy used as the time would be short. We could trade those savings in for the return of the NRT. If you don’t like my budget saver, I also wondered why we can’t have disaggregated data for our SAT or ACT scores like we can our FCAT.

It has been fun and thought provoking. I am glad you kept the discussion going.

By: matthewladner

matthewladner — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:57:25 +0000

NAEP samples are stratified random samples. You claim that there isn’t evidence that older kids haven’t benefited, but that isn’t the case, and it is a lagging indicator. Ending social promotion for illiterates isn’t cheating on NAEP, it is something that all states should consider doing if they are serious about teaching children how to read.

I don’t like NCLB, but I do like testing and transparency. If it were up to me, states would give every child a solid SAT-9 type tests, value added results would be made public and readily accessible on the internet, extensive individual diagnostic reports provided to parents, widespread school choice, and that would be it.

In the end though, I’m just a guy at a think-tank. My ability and desire to second guess a team of people that brought about a 32% reduction in fourth grade illiteracy is very limited.

Good debate and I’ll see you around.

By: Diane Hanfmann

Diane Hanfmann — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:51:08 +0000

The A+ plan must be discarded for that to happen. At least now I see some agreements that we share and know where are differences are. I guess I could understand your happiness with fourth grade data if you also add that this does not translate into later year performance and thatthe subject base is filtered by removing poor performers. How can you even compare when the sample is selective in Florida?
How man y other states retain at grade 3 by governmental rule? It sure is a good way to look good on grade 4 tests.
I will join you in screaming for value added , denouncing NCLB, and I still like Mc Kay vouchers with my limited awareness of the deal. I think we have clearly found our
agreements and disagreements. I doubt either of us will be changing their mind, but it has been a lively discussion and I am glad for your responses. I think I am finished unless I see something else. Thanks for the debate and remember , you can always
change your mind.