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	<title>Comments on: Anywhere But Here!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/</link>
	<description>With Help From Some Friends</description>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/#comment-1450</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=63#comment-1450</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unless someone has been tampering with the film&#039;s audio on youtube, he did say this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uMq7iiIoiSw&amp;feature=related]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unless someone has been tampering with the film&#8217;s audio on youtube, he did say this:</p>
<p><span style="text-align:center; display: block;"><a href="http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/"><img src="http://img.youtube.com/vi/uMq7iiIoiSw/2.jpg" alt="" /></a></span></p>
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		<title>By: Paul Howcroft</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/#comment-1449</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Howcroft]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=63#comment-1449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Captain John H. Miller (played by Tom Hanks) DID NOT Say this in Saving Private Ryan.. You need to watch this film again!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Captain John H. Miller (played by Tom Hanks) DID NOT Say this in Saving Private Ryan.. You need to watch this film again!</p>
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		<title>By: Pajamas Media &#187; Critics Miss Benefits of &#8216;No Child Left Behind&#8217;</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/#comment-390</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pajamas Media &#187; Critics Miss Benefits of &#8216;No Child Left Behind&#8217;]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 08:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=63#comment-390</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] more cogent critics complain that it creates incentives to dumb down the proficiency standard until everyone is [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] more cogent critics complain that it creates incentives to dumb down the proficiency standard until everyone is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Hobart Milton</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/#comment-209</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hobart Milton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 10:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=63#comment-209</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Where&#039;s the empirical evidence for Matthew&#039;s statements?  Without some significant data to support this comment, the point hangs on a very slim thread.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where&#8217;s the empirical evidence for Matthew&#8217;s statements?  Without some significant data to support this comment, the point hangs on a very slim thread.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Ladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew Ladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 21:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=63#comment-129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with you that transparency is good, and even that some states have become more transparent because of NCLB. My concern is that absent some serious revision in the law, that will not remain the case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you that transparency is good, and even that some states have become more transparent because of NCLB. My concern is that absent some serious revision in the law, that will not remain the case.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 19:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=63#comment-128</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My final question does not assume that the race to the bottom scenario doesn&#039;t develop. One of the points I was trying to make, and I guess I wasn&#039;t entirely clear about this, is that the mere presence of a standardized test is valuable even if the cut scores are politicized; the scale scores will still be available and independent researchers can use them to produce reliable information.

Even the mere collection of demographic data mandated by NCLB is vaulable. In my recent study of Florida vouchers, I used NCLB data for demographic variables, because it was the only up-to-date source of data on the number of LEP students in each school.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My final question does not assume that the race to the bottom scenario doesn&#8217;t develop. One of the points I was trying to make, and I guess I wasn&#8217;t entirely clear about this, is that the mere presence of a standardized test is valuable even if the cut scores are politicized; the scale scores will still be available and independent researchers can use them to produce reliable information.</p>
<p>Even the mere collection of demographic data mandated by NCLB is vaulable. In my recent study of Florida vouchers, I used NCLB data for demographic variables, because it was the only up-to-date source of data on the number of LEP students in each school.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Ladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew Ladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 18:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=63#comment-127</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Greg&#039;s final question assumes that the race to the bottom scenario doesn&#039;t develop. Currently, the clear escape hatch to the AMO ramp up that will start in the next year or so is to lower your cut scores. No one- neither George Miller nor the administration-has put forward a proposal to do anything about this problem.

I&#039;m not against testing and transparency. Far from it. It is crystal clear however that the federal government can not do anything to stop states from dummying down, but have in fact provided a huge incentive to lower standards.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg&#8217;s final question assumes that the race to the bottom scenario doesn&#8217;t develop. Currently, the clear escape hatch to the AMO ramp up that will start in the next year or so is to lower your cut scores. No one- neither George Miller nor the administration-has put forward a proposal to do anything about this problem.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not against testing and transparency. Far from it. It is crystal clear however that the federal government can not do anything to stop states from dummying down, but have in fact provided a huge incentive to lower standards.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Forster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 16:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=63#comment-126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dumbing down has clearly occured in some places. A few months ago Indiana schools were bragging about how their pass rates were up. Not long afterward, I had occasion to look a little more closely at Indiana&#039;s scores for an unrelated analysis. I found that while the pass rates were up, the scale scores were flat.

But it&#039;s not clear to what extent the dumbing down is attributable to NCLB. I talked to an old hand in Indiana testing politics, and he gave me the full twenty-year story of how standards are constantly being set and dumbed down, set and dumbed down.

And any dumbing down has to be weighed against the rise in standards elsewhere. I would say the most important rise in standards is the simple imposition of transparency. Before NCLB, many states engaged in no statewide standardized testing, or did not make the results available in a useful format. Every one of those states has to be counted as having increased, not decreased, the rigor of its school accountability, because the mere presence of a quantitative standard creates transparency about results. And I&#039;m sure some states that already did testing are doing it better now. Plus, consider that we&#039;re about to get our first national standard for reporting graduation rates, under the auspices of NCLB.

As for backloading, isn&#039;t that one of the key ways useful things get done in Washington? You do what you really want to do now, and to get people on board and/or sell the policy to the press, you make impossible promises whose fulfilment is backloaded to Never-Never Land. In this case, the imposition of transparency is the real policy, and the promise that all students will become proficient is the bait. I expect that when the time comes, the AMO objectives will be quitely kicked down the road another decade.

Suppose we never get those magical AMO gains. How is that an argument against NCLB? The real story of NCLB is that the public schools got a big cash payoff in exchange for submitting to quantitative measurement of their results, allowing all sorts of research to be done on school performance that couldn&#039;t be done before, leading directly to public accountability for results through simple transparency, even if the formal sanctions associated with NCLB never bite. It seems like a good deal to me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dumbing down has clearly occured in some places. A few months ago Indiana schools were bragging about how their pass rates were up. Not long afterward, I had occasion to look a little more closely at Indiana&#8217;s scores for an unrelated analysis. I found that while the pass rates were up, the scale scores were flat.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s not clear to what extent the dumbing down is attributable to NCLB. I talked to an old hand in Indiana testing politics, and he gave me the full twenty-year story of how standards are constantly being set and dumbed down, set and dumbed down.</p>
<p>And any dumbing down has to be weighed against the rise in standards elsewhere. I would say the most important rise in standards is the simple imposition of transparency. Before NCLB, many states engaged in no statewide standardized testing, or did not make the results available in a useful format. Every one of those states has to be counted as having increased, not decreased, the rigor of its school accountability, because the mere presence of a quantitative standard creates transparency about results. And I&#8217;m sure some states that already did testing are doing it better now. Plus, consider that we&#8217;re about to get our first national standard for reporting graduation rates, under the auspices of NCLB.</p>
<p>As for backloading, isn&#8217;t that one of the key ways useful things get done in Washington? You do what you really want to do now, and to get people on board and/or sell the policy to the press, you make impossible promises whose fulfilment is backloaded to Never-Never Land. In this case, the imposition of transparency is the real policy, and the promise that all students will become proficient is the bait. I expect that when the time comes, the AMO objectives will be quitely kicked down the road another decade.</p>
<p>Suppose we never get those magical AMO gains. How is that an argument against NCLB? The real story of NCLB is that the public schools got a big cash payoff in exchange for submitting to quantitative measurement of their results, allowing all sorts of research to be done on school performance that couldn&#8217;t be done before, leading directly to public accountability for results through simple transparency, even if the formal sanctions associated with NCLB never bite. It seems like a good deal to me.</p>
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		<title>By: matthewladner</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/#comment-125</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matthewladner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 16:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=63#comment-125</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jay is correct that there is always pressure to dummy down accountability tests, whether the federal government contributes to that pressure or not. The sad fact however is that the federal government is adding to that pressure in a spectacular fashion. I don&#039;t agree that these risks have not appeared in practice, and if you look at the AMO objectives, the improvements are all backloaded to the 2011-2014 period.

In other words, the worst is yet to come.

Jay seems willing to fix this flaw, but the administration and Congress do not. To date, none of the major reauthorization proposals have even admitted that this problem exists.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay is correct that there is always pressure to dummy down accountability tests, whether the federal government contributes to that pressure or not. The sad fact however is that the federal government is adding to that pressure in a spectacular fashion. I don&#8217;t agree that these risks have not appeared in practice, and if you look at the AMO objectives, the improvements are all backloaded to the 2011-2014 period.</p>
<p>In other words, the worst is yet to come.</p>
<p>Jay seems willing to fix this flaw, but the administration and Congress do not. To date, none of the major reauthorization proposals have even admitted that this problem exists.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://jaypgreene.com/2008/04/30/anywhere-but-here/#comment-120</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay P. Greene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 09:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jaypgreene.wordpress.com/?p=63#comment-120</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As always, Matt makes a cogent argument, but I think he overstates the problem here.  The incentive to dumb-down tests or standards is not unique to NCLB.  It is a risk under any accountability regime.  And while we can cite instances of dumbing-down, the overall trend under accountability reforms has been to gradually raise standards.  The theoretical risks that Matt describes have largely not appeared in practice.

Yes, NCLB has various flaws, but so do most practical alternatives.  Rather than going &quot;anywhere but here,&quot; it is most likely and probably wisest for us to muddle through, fixing someobvious flaws while accepting other defects.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As always, Matt makes a cogent argument, but I think he overstates the problem here.  The incentive to dumb-down tests or standards is not unique to NCLB.  It is a risk under any accountability regime.  And while we can cite instances of dumbing-down, the overall trend under accountability reforms has been to gradually raise standards.  The theoretical risks that Matt describes have largely not appeared in practice.</p>
<p>Yes, NCLB has various flaws, but so do most practical alternatives.  Rather than going &#8220;anywhere but here,&#8221; it is most likely and probably wisest for us to muddle through, fixing someobvious flaws while accepting other defects.</p>
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